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RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:21:16 AM   
Brad H


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 3/3/2021 11:23:01 AM >


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Post #: 1051
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:23:51 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

I liked Culpepper a lot and thought he gave his all every game, but the board had the same points about Culpepper as it does with Cousins: he can't possibly fulfill his potential and lead us to the SB unless EVERY component of the team is top notch. Right guard injured a couple of games? Sorry, but that affected Daunte and no way should we expect him to rise above that. It has been shown that the OL does give time for Cousins to throw. Problem is he is a statue, he holds the ball too long, and has the worst combination of pocket presence and happy feet a QB could have. But yeah, go enjoy those stats.

Cousins is the Adrian Peterson of QBs. He piles up the yards but is damn well useless in other phases of the game. And he sucks up the cap space like there is no tomorrow.



The stats show that in drop back situations for 2018 and 2019 Cousins was league average. I don't know if he is holding onto the ball long, not moving through his reads fast enough because I don't know the play design and what the primary, secondary reads are. I also don't know if he's deteriorated in those areas since becoming a Viking. When McVay and Shanahan coached him, as I've posted before, they thought highly of him because they considered those strengths for him. And when your interior line is the worst in history it does impact QB play, that's not an excuse, just a fact.

No doubt the extension was a terrible decision, and his cap hits are debilitating the next two years. And upgrading the position is something we should absolutely pursue. I don't enjoy his stats? But I guess any defense of him makes me pro-cousins.


Goff, Cousins, whatever.
Post #: 1052
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:26:10 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28600
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

So Brady capitalized on the turnovers, and didn't make mistakes in the 1st half to put his team in the hole, and did this on the road against quality opposition, and he did the same thing in the SB, against a team that just won the SB the previous year.

There is NO guarantee Cousins would do that.

Only a fool would say any QB could do that. As none of Brady's throws looked terribly difficult, there are probably some that speculate Trubisky, Carr or Cousins could all havemade those throws, but just watching someone play in the clutch, doesn't make another player suddenly clutch.



Make up your mind on which argument you are trying to push. Or better yet, do some research AND then make a claim. Like Brady made the oline better. Prove it. I can post some stats that back up my argument for the SB. Brady was pressured only 3 times (10%) on plays 2.5 or less while Mahomes was pressure 43% in the same situations. Bucs oline had 33 carries, 145 yards, 4.4 average, 1 TD.

Who guaranteed Cousins could do that?

Who said any QB could do that? You need to work on your reading comprehension.

My original points: 1) I'm all for improving the Vikings QB situation. 2) Cousins, inaccurately imo, is getting all the blame for slow starts when it's multiple things.
3) Bucs had a vastly superior team to the Vikings last year in all phases except 1, the run game which was mitigated or caused by scheme (and as you can see the in the SB, ran it pretty effectively). And that the Bucs lifted Brady not the other way around.

1) Ofcourse, nobody should dispute that.

2) Pretty much true.

3) Certainly, the Bucs were a superior team to the Vikings ... vastly on defense, OL and TE. And coaching.

To say that the Bucs would have won big game after big game, from getting the #5 seed in-season as an 11-5 above-average-but-not-really-good-team through winning the SB ... without a Big Game QB, is a feeble argument. That's not what happened in 2020.

Sure, the rest of the team absolutely rose to the occasion, and the Chiefs were not the same team that beat the Bucs during the season.

But 2020 ended with a proven big game player making reads, decisions, throws one necessary play after another, one big game after another.

Cousins is a good QB with a great arm. He has yet to prove he is a big game player in any sense of the term.



Calling the Bucs an above average but not really good team, is a feeble argument. And no Brady did not make one necessary play after another. NFCCG is absolutely proof of that. Brady choked. 3 second half pics - in a row. One of them Brady chucked it up - floater not even close to his target in a critical spot. Bucs defense and GB bailed Brady out.

As Brad pointed out, they held Mahomes and the Chiefs to 3 field goals.

I apologize for the long-ass answer.

Going into the playoffs, anybody not involved in this debate would say the Chiefs, Packers, Saints and Bills were better teams ... easily. The next rung being the Bucs and 5 or 6 other 11-5 teams (Titans, Ravens, Browns, Colts, Seahawks ...) with the struggling Steelers, Rams?, WASH and Bears on the lowest playoff rung.

We can quibble over above average / good / very good ... IMO the Bucs were somewhere in the middle of the pack ...

Yes – you are right ... Brady did not play well in the NFCCG (although he threw 2 TDs which helped). The Bucs defense completely bailed out Brady and won that game ... the Bucs run game was actually the second biggest contributor with some huge gaffes by the packers as probably the third.

When I say 'play after play', it's a mis-statement because it implies 'every necessary play' which is impossible. Maybe 'do enough to win', I dunno, obviously I'm not talking about every game or making the necessary play in every situation – no player has ever done that.

I am not really a Brady fan, never have been. I do grudgingly admit that he somehow consistently finds ways to win in spite of his physical limitations. I used to hate that with the Pats ... for some reason, it entertained me this past season.

As far as the SB – you cannot have it both ways and argue that our stupid OL is holding Cousins back from 'winner' status but that the Bucs Def were great by stuffing Mahomes regardless of his lousy OL (Not to mention playing through injury). The Bucs defense is good but not near the SB's Ravens or Bears level – Brady was a critical factor and, yes, came through in some clutch moments. (not play after play which was a silly exaggeration).

To get back to the original point, Cousins has not done enough in his career with what he has – to be considered a QB that rises to the occasion / plays well in big moments / comes through under pressure (however you want to word it). That's not comparing him to Brady or anyone else ... that is just his trajectory as a QB so far. I honestly hope he gets past that and proves otherwise.


Thanks unome
Post #: 1053
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:26:45 AM   
Pager


Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

So Brady capitalized on the turnovers, and didn't make mistakes in the 1st half to put his team in the hole, and did this on the road against quality opposition, and he did the same thing in the SB, against a team that just won the SB the previous year.

There is NO guarantee Cousins would do that.

Only a fool would say any QB could do that. As none of Brady's throws looked terribly difficult, there are probably some that speculate Trubisky, Carr or Cousins could all havemade those throws, but just watching someone play in the clutch, doesn't make another player suddenly clutch.



Make up your mind on which argument you are trying to push. Or better yet, do some research AND then make a claim. Like Brady made the oline better. Prove it. I can post some stats that back up my argument for the SB. Brady was pressured only 3 times (10%) on plays 2.5 or less while Mahomes was pressure 43% in the same situations. Bucs oline had 33 carries, 145 yards, 4.4 average, 1 TD.

Who guaranteed Cousins could do that?

Who said any QB could do that? You need to work on your reading comprehension.

My original points: 1) I'm all for improving the Vikings QB situation. 2) Cousins, inaccurately imo, is getting all the blame for slow starts when it's multiple things.
3) Bucs had a vastly superior team to the Vikings last year in all phases except 1, the run game which was mitigated or caused by scheme (and as you can see the in the SB, ran it pretty effectively). And that the Bucs lifted Brady not the other way around.

1) Ofcourse, nobody should dispute that.

2) Pretty much true.

3) Certainly, the Bucs were a superior team to the Vikings ... vastly on defense, OL and TE. And coaching.

To say that the Bucs would have won big game after big game, from getting the #5 seed in-season as an 11-5 above-average-but-not-really-good-team through winning the SB ... without a Big Game QB, is a feeble argument. That's not what happened in 2020.

Sure, the rest of the team absolutely rose to the occasion, and the Chiefs were not the same team that beat the Bucs during the season.

But 2020 ended with a proven big game player making reads, decisions, throws one necessary play after another, one big game after another.

Cousins is a good QB with a great arm. He has yet to prove he is a big game player in any sense of the term.



Calling the Bucs an above average but not really good team, is a feeble argument. And no Brady did not make one necessary play after another. NFCCG is absolutely proof of that. Brady choked. 3 second half pics - in a row. One of them Brady chucked it up - floater not even close to his target in a critical spot. Bucs defense and GB bailed Brady out.

As Brad pointed out, they held Mahomes and the Chiefs to 3 field goals.

I apologize for the long-ass answer.

Going into the playoffs, anybody not involved in this debate would say the Chiefs, Packers, Saints and Bills were better teams ... easily. The next rung being the Bucs and 5 or 6 other 11-5 teams (Titans, Ravens, Browns, Colts, Seahawks ...) with the struggling Steelers, Rams?, WASH and Bears on the lowest playoff rung.

We can quibble over above average / good / very good ... IMO the Bucs were somewhere in the middle of the pack ...

Yes – you are right ... Brady did not play well in the NFCCG (although he threw 2 TDs which helped). The Bucs defense completely bailed out Brady and won that game ... the Bucs run game was actually the second biggest contributor with some huge gaffes by the packers as probably the third.

When I say 'play after play', it's a mis-statement because it implies 'every necessary play' which is impossible. Maybe 'do enough to win', I dunno, obviously I'm not talking about every game or making the necessary play in every situation – no player has ever done that.

I am not really a Brady fan, never have been. I do grudgingly admit that he somehow consistently finds ways to win in spite of his physical limitations. I used to hate that with the Pats ... for some reason, it entertained me this past season.

As far as the SB – you cannot have it both ways and argue that our stupid OL is holding Cousins back from 'winner' status but that the Bucs Def were great by stuffing Mahomes regardless of his lousy OL (Not to mention playing through injury). The Bucs defense is good but not near the SB's Ravens or Bears level – Brady was a critical factor and, yes, came through in some clutch moments. (not play after play which was a silly exaggeration).

To get back to the original point, Cousins has not done enough in his career with what he has – to be considered a QB that rises to the occasion / plays well in big moments / comes through under pressure (however you want to word it). That's not comparing him to Brady or anyone else ... that is just his trajectory as a QB so far. I honestly hope he gets past that and proves otherwise.



We are a lot closer in our opinions than we are apart. I agree with definitions and quibbles, like 1 of Brady's TDs in the NFCCG was an 8 yd TD pass set up by the Bucs D forcing a TO. As far as the SB, the Bills didn't generate any pressure on Mahomes compared to what that the Bucs did (where the oline didn't change if I remember right).

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Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 1054
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:32:04 AM   
marty


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Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
I think Goff and Cousins is a good comparison on many levels, but I would take Cousins over Goff. Too many balls in the dirt for Goff, Cousins is more accurate.

Derek Carr and Carson Wentz may also be fair comparison to Cousins. They all seem to crumble under pressure, but Wentz at least has some mobility.

Wentz is going to a team with a good OL, and defense, just lacks WRs, but since I think it's about 80% QB/20% WR, he should do well there, we'll see.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 1055
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:34:50 AM   
Brad H


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I think Goff and Cousins is a good comparison on many levels, but I would take Cousins over Goff. Too many balls in the dirt for Goff, Cousins is more accurate.

Derek Carr and Carson Wentz may also be fair comparison to Cousins. They all seem to crumble under pressure, but Wentz at least has some mobility.

Wentz is going to a team with a good OL, and defense, just lacks WRs, but since I think it's about 80% QB/20% WR, he should do well there, we'll see.

I'd take Derek Carr over any of those choices. He threw 10 touchdowns against one interception in the final two minutes of halves this season. That's a stat I can get behind.

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Post #: 1056
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:47:29 AM   
marty


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Status: online
Had Brady been signed by the Vikes in 2019 and taken them to a SB win, we would hear the same things some are saying about TB now.

TJ would be saying it wasn't just Brady.

Davis came out of nowhere to excel at S. Nobody knew the knew the Vikings defense was going to dominate so much in the playoffs, especially in the SB, where Brady helped them out by throwing for 2 early TDs, and a 24-3 halftime lead over the Chiefs. Mahomes just looked lost out there in his first SB, and the Vikings sealed the deal with a 4th quarter INT from Rhodes, and Cook running out the clock.

There also would have been questions about Andy Ried not winning the big game.

And then there would be the fact that Cook finally stayed healthy for a playoff run, and Mattison was also a big pickup. And then some would have pointed to the good play at G by Kiline, who had played with Brady before.

Some would have said, it wasn't Brady's quick and accurate release, or the early leads he provided. It was the stellar team the Vikings had built around him.

So had it been Cousins in 2018, and then Brady leading the 2019 team to a SB win, some would have said Cousins could have done the same thing, had the Vikings given Cousins the same thing.

But the reality is Cousins led the Vikings to a loss in the game before the NFC Championship, to a team that went on to lose the SB. Whereas, I think Brady would have taken that same Vikings' team to a SB victory.

< Message edited by marty -- 3/3/2021 12:07:01 PM >


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SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 1057
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 11:49:44 AM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

No, finding a shitty QB to compare Cousins to because you don't like him and ignoring statistics because they don't support your argument is lazy.

I will stipulate that stats are not the whole picture, but they do measure how effective a QB operates in his given system with his given teammates. The stats also tell you what the QB was operating behind. The Vikings graded out as the 28th ranked pass blocking unit in the NFL. Isolate the middle of the line and it gets even worse. None of our interior linemen made the top 32 at their positions for pressure rate. That means they finished behind every starter and a few back ups. When the pressure comes that fast and hard from the inside, the QB has no time for receivers to come open, passing windows are non existent and they have to move to buy time and find passing window. Conversely, Goff operated behind one of the best O-lines in the game. He had clean pockets and enjoyed plenty of time to survey his options. His confusion in a clean pocket is on him.

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Post #: 1058
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 12:02:44 PM   
marty


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Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
The Chiefs were resting on their laurels, while the Bucs were up late pouring over game film of the Chiefs, trying to figure out how to beat them.

I was on a driving venture with someone before the SB, and this guy believed the Bucs were going to win the SB. I thought he was a little bit crazy, but I also believed he was right, and I was convinced the Bucs were going to win the SB, and I wanted to place a bet on them, but wasn't able to do so.

Brady texted OC Leftwich at midnight one night, saying a certain play was NOT going to work against the Chiefs, and he explained to Leftwich why it wouldn't work.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 1059
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 12:18:38 PM   
Brad H


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Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

No, finding a shitty QB to compare Cousins to because you don't like him and ignoring statistics because they don't support your argument is lazy.

I will stipulate that stats are not the whole picture, but they do measure how effective a QB operates in his given system with his given teammates. The stats also tell you what the QB was operating behind. The Vikings graded out as the 28th ranked pass blocking unit in the NFL. Isolate the middle of the line and it gets even worse. None of our interior linemen made the top 32 at their positions for pressure rate. That means they finished behind every starter and a few back ups. When the pressure comes that fast and hard from the inside, the QB has no time for receivers to come open, passing windows are non existent and they have to move to buy time and find passing window. Conversely, Goff operated behind one of the best O-lines in the game. He had clean pockets and enjoyed plenty of time to survey his options. His confusion in a clean pocket is on him.

Part of the reason the o-line graded out at 28 was because of the guy holding onto the ball too damned long and locking in on receivers.

IMO, they are both average, at-best quarterbacks. Neither is going to lead a franchise to a title, no matter how much talent you put around them. They don't have that "IT" that it takes to win in big games.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Post #: 1060
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 12:59:44 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

No, finding a shitty QB to compare Cousins to because you don't like him and ignoring statistics because they don't support your argument is lazy.

I will stipulate that stats are not the whole picture, but they do measure how effective a QB operates in his given system with his given teammates. The stats also tell you what the QB was operating behind. The Vikings graded out as the 28th ranked pass blocking unit in the NFL. Isolate the middle of the line and it gets even worse. None of our interior linemen made the top 32 at their positions for pressure rate. That means they finished behind every starter and a few back ups. When the pressure comes that fast and hard from the inside, the QB has no time for receivers to come open, passing windows are non existent and they have to move to buy time and find passing window. Conversely, Goff operated behind one of the best O-lines in the game. He had clean pockets and enjoyed plenty of time to survey his options. His confusion in a clean pocket is on him.

Part of the reason the o-line graded out at 28 was because of the guy holding onto the ball too damned long and locking in on receivers.

IMO, they are both average, at-best quarterbacks. Neither is going to lead a franchise to a title, no matter how much talent you put around them. They don't have that "IT" that it takes to win in big games.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Again, the stats don't support your argument. In fact you have it backwards. Cousins got rid of the ball in about league average time. The line gave Cousins significantly less than league average time to throw.

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Post #: 1061
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 1:27:14 PM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

I don't even like Brady but theorize he elevated that whole TB team, just like he did with NE. He was probably a positive influence in the two weeks before the SB, and had the ultimate "been there, done that" stamp. And when it counted, in the big game, he delivered.

The comparison between stat-boy Cousins and Brady is laughable.


He sent his family away for the two weeks prior to this year’s super bowl so he could properly prepare. Yes. Dude’s a stone cold killer.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 1062
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 1:31:53 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10864
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hell of a lot classier than they treated Antoine Winfield Sr that’s for sure

What happened? I must have missed something.

35 years old. Played here 9 years(two nice contracts). Asked him to take pay cut. Cut him. Tried to resign him for less.

Then, more or less, he retired after that.


As I recall, we were willing to pay Winfield around $3M to stay. He decided to sign with Seattle for damn near league minimum. Then they cut him in preseason.


They cut him one hour before free agency started - after the legal tampering window. Winfield's camp maintains that there was no offer for a paycut and that they were expecting business as usual. They pulled him out of his workout at Winter Park to tell him. He was coming off one of his best seasons in his career.

Don't you think that maybe Winfield played hardball and lost. I find it hard to believe that we didn't offer him a chance at a reduced rate.

I wish there would have been some direct quotes from Winfield in your articles. Just an NFL source speaking for Winfield camp.

Not saying it is right. He had a good season and we went to playoffs. Probably thought it was a slap in the face to take a pay cut. And rightfully so.

This. A pay cut is always a slap in the face. But it's also business in the NFL.


No shit. Just like Rudy refused a pay cut. One got a timely release coordinated so he could send out his goodbye letter and have two weeks in a free agent market with almost no other free agents competing and the other got blind sided only after that entire period had expired. Thank you for hammering home my point.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 1063
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 2:06:46 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

So Brady capitalized on the turnovers, and didn't make mistakes in the 1st half to put his team in the hole, and did this on the road against quality opposition, and he did the same thing in the SB, against a team that just won the SB the previous year.

There is NO guarantee Cousins would do that.

Only a fool would say any QB could do that. As none of Brady's throws looked terribly difficult, there are probably some that speculate Trubisky, Carr or Cousins could all havemade those throws, but just watching someone play in the clutch, doesn't make another player suddenly clutch.



Make up your mind on which argument you are trying to push. Or better yet, do some research AND then make a claim. Like Brady made the oline better. Prove it. I can post some stats that back up my argument for the SB. Brady was pressured only 3 times (10%) on plays 2.5 or less while Mahomes was pressure 43% in the same situations. Bucs oline had 33 carries, 145 yards, 4.4 average, 1 TD.

Who guaranteed Cousins could do that?

Who said any QB could do that? You need to work on your reading comprehension.

My original points: 1) I'm all for improving the Vikings QB situation. 2) Cousins, inaccurately imo, is getting all the blame for slow starts when it's multiple things.
3) Bucs had a vastly superior team to the Vikings last year in all phases except 1, the run game which was mitigated or caused by scheme (and as you can see the in the SB, ran it pretty effectively). And that the Bucs lifted Brady not the other way around.

1) Ofcourse, nobody should dispute that.

2) Pretty much true.

3) Certainly, the Bucs were a superior team to the Vikings ... vastly on defense, OL and TE. And coaching.

To say that the Bucs would have won big game after big game, from getting the #5 seed in-season as an 11-5 above-average-but-not-really-good-team through winning the SB ... without a Big Game QB, is a feeble argument. That's not what happened in 2020.

Sure, the rest of the team absolutely rose to the occasion, and the Chiefs were not the same team that beat the Bucs during the season.

But 2020 ended with a proven big game player making reads, decisions, throws one necessary play after another, one big game after another.

Cousins is a good QB with a great arm. He has yet to prove he is a big game player in any sense of the term.



Calling the Bucs an above average but not really good team, is a feeble argument. And no Brady did not make one necessary play after another. NFCCG is absolutely proof of that. Brady choked. 3 second half pics - in a row. One of them Brady chucked it up - floater not even close to his target in a critical spot. Bucs defense and GB bailed Brady out.

As Brad pointed out, they held Mahomes and the Chiefs to 3 field goals.

I apologize for the long-ass answer.

Going into the playoffs, anybody not involved in this debate would say the Chiefs, Packers, Saints and Bills were better teams ... easily. The next rung being the Bucs and 5 or 6 other 11-5 teams (Titans, Ravens, Browns, Colts, Seahawks ...) with the struggling Steelers, Rams?, WASH and Bears on the lowest playoff rung.

We can quibble over above average / good / very good ... IMO the Bucs were somewhere in the middle of the pack ...

Yes – you are right ... Brady did not play well in the NFCCG (although he threw 2 TDs which helped). The Bucs defense completely bailed out Brady and won that game ... the Bucs run game was actually the second biggest contributor with some huge gaffes by the packers as probably the third.

When I say 'play after play', it's a mis-statement because it implies 'every necessary play' which is impossible. Maybe 'do enough to win', I dunno, obviously I'm not talking about every game or making the necessary play in every situation – no player has ever done that.

I am not really a Brady fan, never have been. I do grudgingly admit that he somehow consistently finds ways to win in spite of his physical limitations. I used to hate that with the Pats ... for some reason, it entertained me this past season.

As far as the SB – you cannot have it both ways and argue that our stupid OL is holding Cousins back from 'winner' status but that the Bucs Def were great by stuffing Mahomes regardless of his lousy OL (Not to mention playing through injury). The Bucs defense is good but not near the SB's Ravens or Bears level – Brady was a critical factor and, yes, came through in some clutch moments. (not play after play which was a silly exaggeration).

To get back to the original point, Cousins has not done enough in his career with what he has – to be considered a QB that rises to the occasion / plays well in big moments / comes through under pressure (however you want to word it). That's not comparing him to Brady or anyone else ... that is just his trajectory as a QB so far. I honestly hope he gets past that and proves otherwise.


Thanks unome

Not sure, is that a jab?

If so, I feel guilty, even filthy ... without knowing why.

Kafkaesque.
Post #: 1064
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 2:15:18 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

I don't even like Brady but theorize he elevated that whole TB team, just like he did with NE. He was probably a positive influence in the two weeks before the SB, and had the ultimate "been there, done that" stamp. And when it counted, in the big game, he delivered.

The comparison between stat-boy Cousins and Brady is laughable.


He sent his family away for the two weeks prior to this year’s super bowl so he could properly prepare. Yes. Dude’s a stone cold killer.

Maybe he's just lazy. I'll have to try the old 'GZUZ I've got another SB to play' excuse next time my wife throws a to-do list at me.
Post #: 1065
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 2:20:30 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 22986
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

No, finding a shitty QB to compare Cousins to because you don't like him and ignoring statistics because they don't support your argument is lazy.

I will stipulate that stats are not the whole picture, but they do measure how effective a QB operates in his given system with his given teammates. The stats also tell you what the QB was operating behind. The Vikings graded out as the 28th ranked pass blocking unit in the NFL. Isolate the middle of the line and it gets even worse. None of our interior linemen made the top 32 at their positions for pressure rate. That means they finished behind every starter and a few back ups. When the pressure comes that fast and hard from the inside, the QB has no time for receivers to come open, passing windows are non existent and they have to move to buy time and find passing window. Conversely, Goff operated behind one of the best O-lines in the game. He had clean pockets and enjoyed plenty of time to survey his options. His confusion in a clean pocket is on him.

Part of the reason the o-line graded out at 28 was because of the guy holding onto the ball too damned long and locking in on receivers.

IMO, they are both average, at-best quarterbacks. Neither is going to lead a franchise to a title, no matter how much talent you put around them. They don't have that "IT" that it takes to win in big games.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Again, the stats don't support your argument. In fact you have it backwards. Cousins got rid of the ball in about league average time. The line gave Cousins significantly less than league average time to throw.

You can keep using numbers to prop him up all you want. It isn't going to make him a better quarterback.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1066
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 3:13:09 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
Keep on comparing Brady and Cousins.....the problem still is who can we get here for reasonable money, draft picks, etc.

Brady Nope
Watson nearly a nope
Wilson nearly a nope


Now trade Cousins to SF grab a 1st or 2nd and draft Lance/Fields/or Alabama QB or just draft one of the three and play Cousins 2021. That is where I think we are at.

If you want to go back in time and not sign Kirk??? Umm what is you better back seat driver solution?????

What do you want that is reasonable moving forward?

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 3/3/2021 3:15:26 PM >


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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 1067
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 3:22:39 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
.
.
This just in....

Courtney Cronin@CourtneyRCronin
Rick Spielman: "Kirk Cousins is our quarterback."

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 1068
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 3:34:14 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
This just in....

Courtney Cronin@CourtneyRCronin
Rick Spielman: "Kirk Cousins is our quarterback."



Also this just in: Water is wet

Kirk Cousins is our QB until he is not

< Message edited by Trekgeekscott -- 3/3/2021 3:35:37 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 1069
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 3:52:16 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If it's a contest between the statistics that measure performance and a Brad H. eye test, I will go with the stats every time.

Unless they are playing in the same offensive system, with the same guys around them, in the same stadium, with the same weather against the same defenses, numbers are mostly irrelevant. What the Rams were trying to do on offense was completely different from what the Vikings were trying to do. Totally different offenses.

The statistical argument is naive and lazy.

No, finding a shitty QB to compare Cousins to because you don't like him and ignoring statistics because they don't support your argument is lazy.

I will stipulate that stats are not the whole picture, but they do measure how effective a QB operates in his given system with his given teammates. The stats also tell you what the QB was operating behind. The Vikings graded out as the 28th ranked pass blocking unit in the NFL. Isolate the middle of the line and it gets even worse. None of our interior linemen made the top 32 at their positions for pressure rate. That means they finished behind every starter and a few back ups. When the pressure comes that fast and hard from the inside, the QB has no time for receivers to come open, passing windows are non existent and they have to move to buy time and find passing window. Conversely, Goff operated behind one of the best O-lines in the game. He had clean pockets and enjoyed plenty of time to survey his options. His confusion in a clean pocket is on him.

Part of the reason the o-line graded out at 28 was because of the guy holding onto the ball too damned long and locking in on receivers.

IMO, they are both average, at-best quarterbacks. Neither is going to lead a franchise to a title, no matter how much talent you put around them. They don't have that "IT" that it takes to win in big games.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Again, the stats don't support your argument. In fact you have it backwards. Cousins got rid of the ball in about league average time. The line gave Cousins significantly less than league average time to throw.

You can keep using numbers to prop him up all you want. It isn't going to make him a better quarterback.


No one is propping him up.....he was the best available QB that offseason. All ears on a solution---comparing him to Goff or Brady doesn't seem like a solution. Aren't you a TB fan Brad. Congrats on the SB win.

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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 1070
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 4:32:24 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
I was listening to Mike Green on ESPN radio the other day. He was comparing Cousins with the Cowboys QB (Prescott) saying that there was no comparison. Cousins really is not respected around the league much, is he. I wonder how Cousins would do if he had the Cowboys offensive line.

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We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1071
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 4:47:30 PM   
marty


Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
Cousins has a better arm than Dak, but if it's a close game, and he needs to make quick plays, and some mobility is required, it's more likely Dak would pull out the win than Cousins.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 1072
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 4:49:48 PM   
marty


Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
If Dak had Cousin's arm, than he'd be Deshaun Watson.

So you're saying right now there's a chance, a chance the Vikes could get Wilson or Watson ? Then it should be done.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 1073
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 5:09:01 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28303
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hell of a lot classier than they treated Antoine Winfield Sr that’s for sure

What happened? I must have missed something.

35 years old. Played here 9 years(two nice contracts). Asked him to take pay cut. Cut him. Tried to resign him for less.

Then, more or less, he retired after that.


As I recall, we were willing to pay Winfield around $3M to stay. He decided to sign with Seattle for damn near league minimum. Then they cut him in preseason.


They cut him one hour before free agency started - after the legal tampering window. Winfield's camp maintains that there was no offer for a paycut and that they were expecting business as usual. They pulled him out of his workout at Winter Park to tell him. He was coming off one of his best seasons in his career.

Don't you think that maybe Winfield played hardball and lost. I find it hard to believe that we didn't offer him a chance at a reduced rate.

I wish there would have been some direct quotes from Winfield in your articles. Just an NFL source speaking for Winfield camp.

Not saying it is right. He had a good season and we went to playoffs. Probably thought it was a slap in the face to take a pay cut. And rightfully so.

This. A pay cut is always a slap in the face. But it's also business in the NFL.


No shit. Just like Rudy refused a pay cut. One got a timely release coordinated so he could send out his goodbye letter and have two weeks in a free agent market with almost no other free agents competing and the other got blind sided only after that entire period had expired. Thank you for hammering home my point.


Actually you should thank me for providing a buffer post so you could pretend to have not seen what Mark had to say, with plausible deniability.
Post #: 1074
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/3/2021 5:11:23 PM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hell of a lot classier than they treated Antoine Winfield Sr that’s for sure

What happened? I must have missed something.

35 years old. Played here 9 years(two nice contracts). Asked him to take pay cut. Cut him. Tried to resign him for less.

Then, more or less, he retired after that.


As I recall, we were willing to pay Winfield around $3M to stay. He decided to sign with Seattle for damn near league minimum. Then they cut him in preseason.


They cut him one hour before free agency started - after the legal tampering window. Winfield's camp maintains that there was no offer for a paycut and that they were expecting business as usual. They pulled him out of his workout at Winter Park to tell him. He was coming off one of his best seasons in his career.

Don't you think that maybe Winfield played hardball and lost. I find it hard to believe that we didn't offer him a chance at a reduced rate.

I wish there would have been some direct quotes from Winfield in your articles. Just an NFL source speaking for Winfield camp.

Not saying it is right. He had a good season and we went to playoffs. Probably thought it was a slap in the face to take a pay cut. And rightfully so.

This. A pay cut is always a slap in the face. But it's also business in the NFL.


No shit. Just like Rudy refused a pay cut. One got a timely release coordinated so he could send out his goodbye letter and have two weeks in a free agent market with almost no other free agents competing and the other got blind sided only after that entire period had expired. Thank you for hammering home my point.


Actually you should thank me for providing a buffer post so you could pretend to have not seen what Mark had to say, with plausible deniability.


Maybe they cut him after they saw him in camp? Maybe they weren't being dicks and saw he had nothing left?

FYI:

2013
Winfield was released by the Minnesota Vikings on March 12, 2013 in a move to clear $7.25 million in salary cap space.

Seattle Seahawks
Winfield signed with the Seattle Seahawks on April 17, 2013 to a one-year, $3 million contract. He was assigned number 21 due to starting fullback Michael Robinson having already been assigned 26 in 2010. He was released from the team during final cuts on August 31, 2013.

Seattle cutting him in final cuts kind of proves what the Vikings point.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 3/3/2021 5:12:30 PM >


_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 1075
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