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RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 9:02:22 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I believe Slater would stay at LT. Great choice if we can get him. My guess is that there will be more than one "great option" available at #14.

If we landed Fisher for LT Slater would pencil in great at LG. Might be the best oline we've ever seen in the Spielman era

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1276
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 9:18:53 AM   
thebigo


Posts: 28303
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

If I had to guess on what would change with Peterson’s usage in Minnesota...

-not traveling full time (maybe situationally)
-less press reps (maybe press him situationally)
-more zone & off man
-strictly on the boundary/outside, no more slot
-some “exotic” rotations/other stuff

(Spencer Thompson on Twitter)


What is "traveling"?


He used to go wherever the best receiver would line up. I believe Rhodes did some of that too in his prime.

Ah yes, thanks!
Post #: 1277
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 9:23:35 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
Themes of the process

The overall results of the Vikings’ guard play from 2015-2020 are as follows:

— One player ranked in the top 15 overall by Pro Football Focus in one season (Joe Berger, 2017).

— Eight of 12 guard seasons ranked at least 40th in pass blocking grade

— Even with an emphasis on run blocking, guards ranked in the top 20 only three times

Some processes that repeated over the years:

— Nearly every year someone was asked to change positions.

— Multiple players were called to starting duty having never in their career been asked to start. Some of those players worked out in Harris, Berger and Easton.

— No matter how much a guard struggled, he was never replaced except for Cleveland taking over for Samia (and technically speaking Samia got injured).

— The two players who signed multiple-year contracts were both past their primes and neither made it past a single season.

— The league got harder. A grade of 70.0 in 2020 would put a guard in the top 15. In 2015, a 70.0 grade would have ranked 36th. The degree of difficulty jump for guards may be due to more teams using edge rushers over guards in pass rushing situations and putting more emphasis on defensive tackles who can get after quarterbacks.

— Three players (Harris, Berger, Kline) retired and one (Easton) suffered a season-ending injury. They were four of the better guards the Vikings had in the Zimmer era.

— The Vikings rarely spent draft capital on guards. Here’s a list of the guards they drafted from 2015-2020:

2020 — second round — Ezra Cleveland (played tackle in college)

2020 — seventh round — Kyle Hinton

2019 — fourth round — Dru Samia

2018 — sixth round — Colby Gossett

2017 — fifth round — Danny Isidora

The Vikings also rarely poured cap space into the position. Here’s where they ranked in total O-line spending (via OverTheCap.com):

2021: 32nd

2020: 32nd

2019: 28th

2018: 21st

2017: 30th

2016: 3rd

2015: 3rd

Here are the single-season cap hits for guards who were not on their rookie contracts:

Brandon Fusco — $3.5 million (2015), $4.0 million (2016)

Alex Boone — $6.7 million

Joe Berger — $1.7 million (2016), $2.1 million (2017)

Tom Compton — $900,000

Mike Remmers — $4.6 million

Josh Kline — $3.1 million

Conclusions on process versus luck

The Vikings have had their fair share of bad luck along the offensive line. Nobody would have expected Harris or Kline’s careers to come to early ends or Easton to be lost for the entire 2018 season due to back surgery. Any one of those guards could have had long Vikings careers and solidified their positions.

But in terms of making your own luck, well, the Vikings did not do much of that at guard either. They have spent very little capital on the position over the years in the draft or free agency. They haven’t taken swings at players in the middle-to-late rounds and even chose multiple specialists rather than taking lottery tickets at guard despite the consistent need.

They asked tackles to play guard, centers to play guard, right guards to become left guards and career backups to become starters. And then they often committed to those players at those spots.

Of course, there’s only so much money to go around when pouring cap space into a quarterback and numerous defensive players but they may have overlooked the NFL’s increase in interior pressure in recent years and the susceptibility of their quarterback to such issues. Bridgewater and Keenum were mobile and Bradford had a quick release. Cousins does not possess either of those skills.

Now it appears the processes are going to be repeated unless the Vikings select a guard higher in the draft or pull off a trade. Their options for this offseason at guard appear to be A) leaving Ezra Cleveland at guard and either signing a cheap veteran or drafting someone to start as a rookie B) waiting and acquiring someone from another team in a camp cut or trade C) moving Cleveland to left tackle and doing some combination of signing/drafting both guard spots.

Where does that leave them? Probably with Cousins still facing pressure up the middle.

However, what we’ve seen from the likes of Berger and Easton is that the position doesn’t have to be emphasized with huge dollars and top draft picks if the under-the-radar players work out to combine for average results. The bar isn’t as high as it might be for QB, receiver, defensive end, cornerback, etc. to hold down the fort.

The Vikings still have a chance to find those types of players. Doing it with past backups, out-of-position linemen and late draft picks might not get it done.


per Matthew Coller

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1278
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 9:29:16 AM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
I would feel bad for Cleveland not playing at his best position, but if you have a chance to get Darisaw or Slater, either who have a reasonable chance to be a Randall McDaniel kind of player, you have to jump at that.

The other thing about Cleveland is that I do believe he can do better in year two, like a lot of offensive linemen do, especially if he gets the full off-season to prepare including the full time weight training.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1279
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 10:04:19 AM   
David F.


Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Themes of the process

The overall results of the Vikings’ guard play from 2015-2020 are as follows:

— One player ranked in the top 15 overall by Pro Football Focus in one season (Joe Berger, 2017).

— Eight of 12 guard seasons ranked at least 40th in pass blocking grade

— Even with an emphasis on run blocking, guards ranked in the top 20 only three times

Some processes that repeated over the years:

— Nearly every year someone was asked to change positions.

— Multiple players were called to starting duty having never in their career been asked to start. Some of those players worked out in Harris, Berger and Easton.

— No matter how much a guard struggled, he was never replaced except for Cleveland taking over for Samia (and technically speaking Samia got injured).

— The two players who signed multiple-year contracts were both past their primes and neither made it past a single season.

— The league got harder. A grade of 70.0 in 2020 would put a guard in the top 15. In 2015, a 70.0 grade would have ranked 36th. The degree of difficulty jump for guards may be due to more teams using edge rushers over guards in pass rushing situations and putting more emphasis on defensive tackles who can get after quarterbacks.

— Three players (Harris, Berger, Kline) retired and one (Easton) suffered a season-ending injury. They were four of the better guards the Vikings had in the Zimmer era.

— The Vikings rarely spent draft capital on guards. Here’s a list of the guards they drafted from 2015-2020:

2020 — second round — Ezra Cleveland (played tackle in college)

2020 — seventh round — Kyle Hinton

2019 — fourth round — Dru Samia

2018 — sixth round — Colby Gossett

2017 — fifth round — Danny Isidora

The Vikings also rarely poured cap space into the position. Here’s where they ranked in total O-line spending (via OverTheCap.com):

2021: 32nd

2020: 32nd

2019: 28th

2018: 21st

2017: 30th

2016: 3rd

2015: 3rd

Here are the single-season cap hits for guards who were not on their rookie contracts:

Brandon Fusco — $3.5 million (2015), $4.0 million (2016)

Alex Boone — $6.7 million

Joe Berger — $1.7 million (2016), $2.1 million (2017)

Tom Compton — $900,000

Mike Remmers — $4.6 million

Josh Kline — $3.1 million

Conclusions on process versus luck

The Vikings have had their fair share of bad luck along the offensive line. Nobody would have expected Harris or Kline’s careers to come to early ends or Easton to be lost for the entire 2018 season due to back surgery. Any one of those guards could have had long Vikings careers and solidified their positions.

But in terms of making your own luck, well, the Vikings did not do much of that at guard either. They have spent very little capital on the position over the years in the draft or free agency. They haven’t taken swings at players in the middle-to-late rounds and even chose multiple specialists rather than taking lottery tickets at guard despite the consistent need.

They asked tackles to play guard, centers to play guard, right guards to become left guards and career backups to become starters. And then they often committed to those players at those spots.

Of course, there’s only so much money to go around when pouring cap space into a quarterback and numerous defensive players but they may have overlooked the NFL’s increase in interior pressure in recent years and the susceptibility of their quarterback to such issues. Bridgewater and Keenum were mobile and Bradford had a quick release. Cousins does not possess either of those skills.

Now it appears the processes are going to be repeated unless the Vikings select a guard higher in the draft or pull off a trade. Their options for this offseason at guard appear to be A) leaving Ezra Cleveland at guard and either signing a cheap veteran or drafting someone to start as a rookie B) waiting and acquiring someone from another team in a camp cut or trade C) moving Cleveland to left tackle and doing some combination of signing/drafting both guard spots.

Where does that leave them? Probably with Cousins still facing pressure up the middle.

However, what we’ve seen from the likes of Berger and Easton is that the position doesn’t have to be emphasized with huge dollars and top draft picks if the under-the-radar players work out to combine for average results. The bar isn’t as high as it might be for QB, receiver, defensive end, cornerback, etc. to hold down the fort.

The Vikings still have a chance to find those types of players. Doing it with past backups, out-of-position linemen and late draft picks might not get it done.


per Matthew Coller


Great piece. This should put to rest the outdated myth that only 'those within the organizations are smart enough to know about decision making'. He identifies the problem, provides facts, reviews history, and offers a solution. Too bad his last name isn't Zimmer or Kubiak.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 1280
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 10:42:02 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I would feel bad for Cleveland not playing at his best position, but if you have a chance to get Darisaw or Slater, either who have a reasonable chance to be a Randall McDaniel kind of player, you have to jump at that.

The other thing about Cleveland is that I do believe he can do better in year two, like a lot of offensive linemen do, especially if he gets the full off-season to prepare including the full time weight training.

Slow down Bruce!

Slater and Darisaw have a .014562 chance of being the next RD.

Top 5 blue chip OL have a 50-50 chance of being better than solid pro. 1 out 5 are tremendous. Tremendous, durable, HOF? .014563.

If you follow Newtonian science.
Post #: 1281
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 10:45:57 AM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12177
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

If I had to guess on what would change with Peterson’s usage in Minnesota...

-not traveling full time (maybe situationally)
-less press reps (maybe press him situationally)
-more zone & off man
-strictly on the boundary/outside, no more slot
-some “exotic” rotations/other stuff

(Spencer Thompson on Twitter)


What is "traveling"?


He used to go wherever the best receiver would line up. I believe Rhodes did some of that too in his prime.

Ah yes, thanks!

Not just playing the home games.
Post #: 1282
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 11:46:42 AM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

If I had to guess on what would change with Peterson’s usage in Minnesota...

-not traveling full time (maybe situationally)
-less press reps (maybe press him situationally)
-more zone & off man
-strictly on the boundary/outside, no more slot
-some “exotic” rotations/other stuff

(Spencer Thompson on Twitter)


What is "traveling"?


He used to go wherever the best receiver would line up. I believe Rhodes did some of that too in his prime.

Ah yes, thanks!

Not just playing the home games.




_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1283
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 5:22:32 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I would feel bad for Cleveland not playing at his best position, but if you have a chance to get Darisaw or Slater, either who have a reasonable chance to be a Randall McDaniel kind of player, you have to jump at that.

The other thing about Cleveland is that I do believe he can do better in year two, like a lot of offensive linemen do, especially if he gets the full off-season to prepare including the full time weight training.

Slow down Bruce!

Slater and Darisaw have a .014562 chance of being the next RD.

Top 5 blue chip OL have a 50-50 chance of being better than solid pro. 1 out 5 are tremendous. Tremendous, durable, HOF? .014563.

If you follow Newtonian science.


It's an insult to the great Randall McDaniel:
12× Pro Bowl (1989–2000)
9× First-team All-Pro (1990–1998)
NFL 1990s All-Decade Team
NFL 100th Anniversary All-Time Team
Minnesota Vikings Ring of Honor
Morris Trophy (1987)
National Football Foundation College Hall of Fame
Pro Football Hall of Fame
Post #: 1284
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 5:26:23 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I would feel bad for Cleveland not playing at his best position, but if you have a chance to get Darisaw or Slater, either who have a reasonable chance to be a Randall McDaniel kind of player, you have to jump at that.

The other thing about Cleveland is that I do believe he can do better in year two, like a lot of offensive linemen do, especially if he gets the full off-season to prepare including the full time weight training.

Slow down Bruce!

Slater and Darisaw have a .014562 chance of being the next RD.

Top 5 blue chip OL have a 50-50 chance of being better than solid pro. 1 out 5 are tremendous. Tremendous, durable, HOF? .014563.

If you follow Newtonian science.


It's been 33 years since we drafted McDaniel. We're due to draft an elite offensive lineman. More than due and this is a great year to do it. But I get your point. McDaniel was special. Biblically special.

So I searched for a Bible verse that might be appropriate in reference to the next Randall McDaniel:

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,


{2 Peter 1:19)



< Message edited by Bruce Johnson -- 3/23/2021 5:27:40 PM >


_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1285
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/23/2021 5:33:26 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
That's almost as bad as a twitter signature saying I love god, want peace in the world, and Democrats are bad.
Post #: 1286
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 9:16:28 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
We are talking about a filthy nasty OL ...

Bruce, maybe a nice uplifting quote from Reservoir Dogs next time!

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 3/24/2021 9:35:18 AM >
Post #: 1287
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 11:46:40 AM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

We are talking about a filthy nasty OL ...

Bruce, maybe a nice uplifting quote from Reservoir Dogs next time!


Ok, but I'll let you look up the quote. But for some, a filthy, nasty OLineman would be a thing of beauty.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1288
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 2:53:14 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

We are talking about a filthy nasty OL ...

Bruce, maybe a nice uplifting quote from Reservoir Dogs next time!


Ok, but I'll let you look up the quote. But for some, a filthy, nasty OLineman would be a thing of beauty.

Not for me, I prefer a dancing bear in a phone booth with short arms and no sand in his pants.
Post #: 1289
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 4:22:27 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28303
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

We are talking about a filthy nasty OL ...

Bruce, maybe a nice uplifting quote from Reservoir Dogs next time!


Ok, but I'll let you look up the quote. But for some, a filthy, nasty OLineman would be a thing of beauty.

Not for me, I prefer a dancing bear in a phone booth with short arms and no sand in his pants.


No sand in his pants? That's just weird.
Post #: 1290
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 4:59:27 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

Posts: 14008
Status: offline
Anyone remember this guy, with attitude?

Anthony Herrera

https://archive.naplesnews.com/news/ndn-top-25-all-time-greatest-football-players-no-3-anthony-herrera-barron-collier-ep-512463810-341796221.html/

_____________________________

**** you all.
Post #: 1291
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 7:00:30 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
Did Wade Wilson pass away?

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1292
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 7:07:25 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 77939
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Did Wade Wilson pass away?


2 years ago, on his 60th Birthday.
Post #: 1293
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/24/2021 7:41:18 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Did Wade Wilson pass away?


2 years ago, on his 60th Birthday.
[/quote

I must have simply forgot. So sad. I also forgot that he was an assistant coach for the Cowboys.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1294
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 7:33:36 AM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
watching Ezra's growth from putting up a debut performance on par with Dru Samia to improving each week has been awesome.

no offseason, wasn't drafted to be a guard, won the competition for RG anyway, played against Grady Jarrett, Kenny Clark, and Akiem Hicks in 3 of 4 starts.

Spencer Thompson on Twitter

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1295
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 8:24:41 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
The Cowboys are signing safety Jayron Kearse to a one-year contract, Michael Gehlken of the Dallas Morning News reports.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1296
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 9:41:14 AM   
David F.


Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

watching Ezra's growth from putting up a debut performance on par with Dru Samia to improving each week has been awesome.

no offseason, wasn't drafted to be a guard, won the competition for RG anyway, played against Grady Jarrett, Kenny Clark, and Akiem Hicks in 3 of 4 starts.

Spencer Thompson on Twitter



What?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 1297
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 10:05:39 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

watching Ezra's growth from putting up a debut performance on par with Dru Samia to improving each week has been awesome.

no offseason, wasn't drafted to be a guard, won the competition for RG anyway, played against Grady Jarrett, Kenny Clark, and Akiem Hicks in 3 of 4 starts.

Spencer Thompson on Twitter



What?

Thought that was a bit of a stretch as well

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1298
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 11:43:29 AM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

watching Ezra's growth from putting up a debut performance on par with Dru Samia to improving each week has been awesome.

no offseason, wasn't drafted to be a guard, won the competition for RG anyway, played against Grady Jarrett, Kenny Clark, and Akiem Hicks in 3 of 4 starts.

Spencer Thompson on Twitter



What?


Yeah. By default after utter failure by a couple others. You're right. That was another point though, about the coaching. They should have put the talented rookie out there, even if to take some lumps in development. Coaching decisions have stunk.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 1299
RE: General Vikes Talk - 3/25/2021 12:01:04 PM   
Pager


Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

watching Ezra's growth from putting up a debut performance on par with Dru Samia to improving each week has been awesome.

no offseason, wasn't drafted to be a guard, won the competition for RG anyway, played against Grady Jarrett, Kenny Clark, and Akiem Hicks in 3 of 4 starts.

Spencer Thompson on Twitter



What?

Thought that was a bit of a stretch as well



The rest is pretty valid, but didn't win the competition against Dozier or Elf. Was that on Ezra or our coaching staff? It took an injury to Hill to see ONeil, and an injury to Elf, and bomb by Samia to see Ezra. Jones, who imo would have been an improvement over either guard, didn't even crack the lineup.

I put 99% on coaching staff.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 1300
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