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RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 12:25:28 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9305
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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

#Vikings spoke to the #Bengals today about possible trade of DT Geno Atkins #Minnesota #NFL

(NFL Rumors on Twitter)

Atkins makes $12m/yr....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 151

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 7:34:51 AM

Bill Jandro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

#Vikings spoke to the #Bengals today about possible trade of DT Geno Atkins #Minnesota #NFL

(NFL Rumors on Twitter)

Atkins makes $12m/yr....

Sounded like Cinn was going to release him. Might as well wait.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 152

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 8:16:26 AM

Brad H

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From: Parts Unknown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

In a dreamworld where we could find ten stars at different positions to take contracts that amount to half of what they're worth we could manufacture a Super Bowl win. Get a veteran superstar QB willing to take $15 million per year for three years. Get a Michael Thomas to take $9 million per year. Get a Harrison Smith, Stephon Gilmore and Jalen Ramsey to take $5 million per year. Repeat this with an edge rusher and three top notch offensive linemen. Combine them with the players still on their rookie contracts and throw in some filler and theoretically you could become a mega power. I'm surprised no one has tried this yet. It's a dream world scenario, I know.

I'd argue that Harrison Smith is not a star.

Teams don't win Super Bowls with Safeties and Linebackers.

Today's game you need DB's and DL's. I wouldn't send very much on the rest when push came to shove. Give me elite pass rushers and shutdown corners. If you don't have them Linebackers and Safeties are not going to cover that flaw up. Another Speilman failure.

I don't think Tampa has shutdown corners.

I think they have
- ELITE defensive line
- solid but unspectacular corners
- at least 1 play maker at safety
- they also have outstanding linebackers

Nonsense. Their corners are off the charts. Mahomes threw over 50 passes in the Super Bowl and guys weren't open. And yes, they may have the best linebacker group in the league. The reason the Tampa D-Line looked so good was because guys were covered. Kansas City had problems up front on offense all season. The chickens came home to roost in the Super Bowl because guys were covered.

Wrong then, wrong now. The D line dominated the game. Mahomes was on the run from the snap on many plays, throwing many passes from 10-15+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, while running away from it.

Mahomes was on the run all season. The difference this time around was his guys were covered.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 153

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:26:09 AM

Tom Sykes

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There’s a big difference between Mahomes scrambling around to buy time until his WRs open up -and- Mahomes in the SB running around throwing up prayers while getting pounded. The first is spontaneous by design (his strength), the second was trying to avoid sacks and grounding penalties (the results speak for themselves).

Post #: 154

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:37:47 AM

marty

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 155

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:43:11 AM

Mark Anderson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

There’s a big difference between Mahomes scrambling around to buy time until his WRs open up -and- Mahomes in the SB running around throwing up prayers while getting pounded. The first is spontaneous by design (his strength), the second was trying to avoid sacks and grounding penalties (the results speak for themselves).

There is a big difference from Eric Fisher to Remmers protecting your blind side. OLine was horrible in SB. TB DLine was peaking in playoffs.

Post #: 156

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:44:25 AM

Tom Sykes

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You can't have a great defense without decent CBs ... but even elite CBs get eaten up if the QB has all day.

By the same token, put some consistent pressure on a great QB and even freakin' Sendejo looks good as a slot CB.

Post #: 157

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:47:12 AM

Tom Sykes

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Joined: 7/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

There’s a big difference between Mahomes scrambling around to buy time until his WRs open up -and- Mahomes in the SB running around throwing up prayers while getting pounded. The first is spontaneous by design (his strength), the second was trying to avoid sacks and grounding penalties (the results speak for themselves).

There is a big difference from Eric Fisher to Remmers protecting your blind side. OLine was horrible in SB. TB DLine was peaking in playoffs.

Yes, I posted that on the previous page.

Though not as succinctly as you just did.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 3/10/2021 9:49:02 AM >

Post #: 158

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:48:23 AM

Tom Sykes

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Joined: 7/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

Nobody thinks it is either one or the other.

Well ... except for Brad.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 3/10/2021 9:49:25 AM >

Post #: 159

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:50:01 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

At the end of the day, we may both be wrong. Tampa has arguably the best linebacker trio in the league.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 160

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:50:45 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

You can't have a great defense without decent CBs ... but even elite CBs get eaten up if the QB has all day.

By the same token, put some consistent pressure on a great QB and even freakin' Sendejo looks good as a slot CB.

A good d-line makes 3-5 plays a game. Corners cover on about 75% of the plays. It's a passing league.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 161

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:50:55 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9305
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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.
.

Tom Pelissero@TomPelissero
The NFL informed clubs they won't be allowed to borrow cap room from future years to help them in 2021 under Article 11, Section 2 of the CBA, per sources.
So, it's a hard $182.5 million salary cap, though obviously teams have carryover and various mechanisms to clear space.

Courtney Cronin@CourtneyRCronin
Vikings are $2,247,630 over the cap with the $182.5 million cap + carryover/adjustments. Lot of different ways they could get under, including an extensions for Riley Reiff/Brian O'Neill/Harrison Smith. Could also restructure Britton Colquitt, release Shamar Stephen.

< Message edited by ratoppenheimer -- 3/10/2021 9:53:07 AM >

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 162

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:51:51 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
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From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

Nobody thinks it is either one or the other.

Well ... except for Brad.

Not true. It works in concert. But if you can't cover, you got now shot in this era.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 163

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:57:47 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44242
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

You can't have a great defense without decent CBs ... but even elite CBs get eaten up if the QB has all day.

By the same token, put some consistent pressure on a great QB and even freakin' Sendejo looks good as a slot CB.

A good d-line makes 3-5 plays a game. Corners cover on about 75% of the plays. It's a passing league.

A good d-line makes 3-5 plays a game? That's ridiculous. Any time a d-line sacks the QB, deflects a pass, forces the QB to pull the ball down because they are in his passing window, forces a QB to throw early, forces a QB out the pocket/ cutting the field in half, is the d-line making a play. A good d-line makes a hell of a lot more than 3-5 of those a game.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 164

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 9:59:03 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44242
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

Nobody thinks it is either one or the other.

Well ... except for Brad.

Not true. It works in concert. But if you can't cover, you got now shot in this era.

And if you can't pressure the QB, you get slaughtered in this era.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 165

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:02:24 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

You're both right, it was a combination of the Bucs' players in their 2ndary, and up front heavily studied Mahome's tendencies.

It wasn't really elite players.

You could have plugged Barr or Kendricks in there, and they would have been making plays. Stick Griffin or Hunter, or Joseph of 2 years ago, and they would have been making plays with the Bucs.

Stick Rhodes, or even Waynes in there, have them do mega studying of Mahome's tendencies, and with the pressure up front, they would have been making plays in the SB.

Nobody thinks it is either one or the other.

Well ... except for Brad.

Not true. It works in concert. But if you can't cover, you got now shot in this era.

And if you can't pressure the QB, you get slaughtered in this era.

I agree. But an average d-lineman can look good with great corners. Ask New England, who barely had a d-lineman you could name for years but always had a great defense.

Offenses have changed. The ball gets out so quickly that even a great defensive lineman has no chance if the offense is clicking.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 166

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:03:24 AM

Brad H

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From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 3/10/2021 10:07:04 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 167

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:25:22 AM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
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To have an elite defense it's both.

And NE had Chandler Jones who has been one of the most prolific sack artists in the NFL. Plenty of other NE lineman who were impactful, it wasn't all CB play.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 168

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:34:06 AM

Brad H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

To have an elite defense it's both.

And NE had Chandler Jones who has been one of the most prolific sack artists in the NFL. Plenty of other NE lineman who were impactful, it wasn't all CB play.

Chandler is a rush-edge linebacker. Kind of a hybrid player. Rarely plays with his hand in the dirt.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 3/10/2021 10:37:50 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 169

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:34:27 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 170

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:38:37 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

If you'd like to call Watt and Clowney overrated, have at it.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 171

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:40:19 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44242
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

If you'd like to call Watt and Clowney overrated, have at it.

I think I just did.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 172

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:45:58 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

If you'd like to call Watt and Clowney overrated, have at it.

I think I just did.

I would agree to a certain extent on Clowney. Never lived up to the hype. Part of the reason was that his corners couldn't cover.

As for Watt, I'd suggest leaving that one alone. Five time pro bowler. Five time first team all pro. Three time NFL Defensive MVP. Pro Football Hall of Fame All-Decade Team.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 3/10/2021 10:59:11 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 173

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 10:59:39 AM 1 votes

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

If you'd like to call Watt and Clowney overrated, have at it.

I think I just did.

I would agree to a certain extent on Clowney. Never lived up to the hype. Part of the reason was that his corners couldn't cover.

Clowney not living up to billing has nothing to do with corners. That aspect of it is so overblown. For every "coverage sack", there is an interception because the QB was forced to throw early or on the run. You need both pressure and coverage to make it work. A quality corner isn't going to turn a run of the mill lineman into an elite pass rusher any more than a great pass rusher will turn Waynes into a shut down corner. You want an elite pass defense, you quality in both position groups.

Watt? Hell of a career. Just not lately.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 3/10/2021 11:01:55 AM >

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 174

RE: Free Agency 2021 - 3/10/2021 11:03:48 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 11994
Joined: 9/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Ask Houston, who spent a gazillion dollars on defensive linemen in the past decade but couldn't stop anyone. Not even JJ Watt and Jadaveon Clowney could make them look good.

Why? Because they couldn't cover anybody.

Couldn't have anything to do with Clowney and Watt being incredibly overrated. The best corners in the league can only sustain coverage for so long on a quality NFL receiver. If the pass rusher can't get to the QB, the receiver will get away from the corner.

If you'd like to call Watt and Clowney overrated, have at it.

I think I just did.

I would agree to a certain extent on Clowney. Never lived up to the hype. Part of the reason was that his corners couldn't cover.

Clowney not living up to billing has nothing to do with corners. That aspect of it is so overblown. For every "coverage sack", there is an interception because the QB was forced to throw early or on the run. You need both pressure and coverage to make it work. A quality corner isn't going to turn a run of the mill lineman into an elite pass rusher any more than a great pass rusher will turn Waynes into a shut down corner. You want an elite pass defense, you quality in both position groups.

Watt? Hell of a career. Just not lately.