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RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 11:56:01 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44851
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

That's right, and it's why in these close-game situations the analytics call for more aggressive play calling even after the team is in field goal range. Zimmer seems to not trust Cousins enough (e.g., worry too much about a pick or an incomplete pass that stops the clock) and trust his defense too much. It's like he's still coaching the 2017 team, when the defense was much better (until the playoffs, that is), and Keenum had the tendency to make an ill advised pass every once in a while.

There are times that it seems like once the Vikings are in FG range, Zimmer becomes more concerned about not turning the ball over than going for the TD. Get a first down on the 9 yard line and you can guarantee the first play will be a run.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 651

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 12:18:02 PM

Murph

Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/20/2008
From: PNW
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

Chase McLaughlin, on our practice squad for 2 months last season, now 9/9 on field goals (3/3 on 50+ yards) and 15/15 on extra points. Another one that got away.

So basically we bring in then destroy good kickers from around the league, but equalize things by being a kicking farm team for the league.

Strange considering we rely so much on FGs.

True. Zimmer ball has a heavy reliance on FG's. It's bizarre/ironic that we have struggled so mightily with Kickers.

If this is the current regime's philosophy we should just trade a #1 to the Ravens for Justin Tucker. I'm kidding but frustrated.

I see you said the same a few posts later Bill but you're spot on with this.

< Message edited by Murph -- 10/20/2021 12:20:19 PM >

_____________________________

Hey Wilf's, let's build a "Perennial Super Bowl contender" not a "perennial playoff contender".

Post #: 652

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 12:29:13 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

Cowardly? No, that's way over the top. If you are including fans. Are you?

Every situation is different but for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG than to get the ball into the endzone.

Some coaches and QBs refuse to give up on a death-blow TD until they are out of downs or clock ... so they HAVE to settle for a FG.

Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded.

And yes, as well as he's played, Cousins has a big part in our methodical approach to working down the field for a kick (and ignoring riskier throws that might put the game away with a TD).

I do agree that some fans put far too much blame for a loss on a missed walk-off FG.

IMO that is denial ... but cowardly? C'mon.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/20/2021 12:32:52 PM >

Post #: 653

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 12:39:35 PM

David F.

Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

That's right, and it's why in these close-game situations the analytics call for more aggressive play calling even after the team is in field goal range. Zimmer seems to not trust Cousins enough (e.g., worry too much about a pick or an incomplete pass that stops the clock) and trust his defense too much. It's like he's still coaching the 2017 team, when the defense was much better (until the playoffs, that is), and Keenum had the tendency to make an ill advised pass every once in a while.

There are times that it seems like once the Vikings are in FG range, Zimmer becomes more concerned about not turning the ball over than going for the TD. Get a first down on the 9 yard line and you can guarantee the first play will be a run.

It's worse than you think. I looked it up by going through all the play-by-plays of the six games so far. I considered field goal range to be the opponent's 30-yard-line or better. Then I checked the play call for any first down on the opponent's 30-yard-line or better.

In week one there was a nice mix. Three runs and two passes.
In week two it was an even split two and two.
In week three we actually passed five times and ran once. That's the one game we won convincingly by the way.
In week four we start to see the change. Granted there were only two instances of us having a first down inside Cleveland's 30 but on both times we ran.
In week five there were three instances and we ran on all three of them.
In week six, GULP!, There were ten instances and we ran on NINE of them. The lone pass was the -3 yarder to Jefferson late in the game.

So if I'm scouting the Vikes for week 8 I will notice that they run on first down inside the opponent's 30-yard-line 93% of the time over the last three games. Holy predictable batman!

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 654

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 1:15:21 PM 1 votes

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 13545
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

Cowardly? No, that's way over the top. If you are including fans. Are you?

Every situation is different but for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG than to get the ball into the endzone.

Some coaches and QBs refuse to give up on a death-blow TD until they are out of downs or clock ... so they HAVE to settle for a FG.

Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded.

And yes, as well as he's played, Cousins has a big part in our methodical approach to working down the field for a kick (and ignoring riskier throws that might put the game away with a TD).

I do agree that some fans put far too much blame for a loss on a missed walk-off FG.

IMO that is denial ... but cowardly? C'mon.

I nominate you as coaching apologist of the 2021-2022 season.

Getting overly conservative and protecting a 4 point plus lead by running the ball twice and taking a “ safe” Checkdown… is entirely a coaching decision and ultimately cowardly.

We are Vikings!!

Our coach is a CYA, Fingerpointing, accepter of mediocrity and antiquated coaching philosophy.

You are fine with it.

The rest of us, as fan and wannabe Vikings, are not.

Apologize away, captain CYA.

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad

Post #: 655

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 1:19:18 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

Cowardly? No, that's way over the top. If you are including fans. Are you?

Every situation is different but for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG than to get the ball into the endzone.

Some coaches and QBs refuse to give up on a death-blow TD until they are out of downs or clock ... so they HAVE to settle for a FG.

Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded.

And yes, as well as he's played, Cousins has a big part in our methodical approach to working down the field for a kick (and ignoring riskier throws that might put the game away with a TD).

I do agree that some fans put far too much blame for a loss on a missed walk-off FG.

IMO that is denial ... but cowardly? C'mon.

I nominate you as coaching apologist of the 2021-2022 season.

Getting overly conservative and protecting a 4 point plus lead by running the ball twice and taking a “ safe” Checkdown… is entirely a coaching decision and ultimately cowardly.

We are Vikings!!

Our coach is a CYA, Fingerpointing, accepter of mediocrity and antiquated coaching philosophy.

You are fine with it.

The rest of us, as fan and wannabe Vikings, are not.

Apologize away, captain CYA.

Screw you. You missed my point by three end zones and two time zones.

I'm not defending anything ... the opposite.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/20/2021 1:35:10 PM >

Post #: 656

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 1:38:27 PM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 13545
Status: offline

Oh big talk from the apologist..

Your list of excuses include…

You defend taking the field goals…

“B ut for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG ”..

You defending the coach and about being entrenched in “safe plays”

“ Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early“

You are rationalizing cowardly football..

Therefore you ARE AN APOLOGIST!

GUtless Fuq.

Cull my diq with your lips..

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad

Post #: 657

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 1:50:00 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 44851
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

Tom was not playing coaching apologist.

"Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded." ....this is not apologizing for the coach. It's a criticism.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 658

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 2:26:47 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Oh big talk from the apologist..

Your list of excuses include…

You defend taking the field goals…

“B ut for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG ”..

You defending the coach and about being entrenched in “safe plays”

“ Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early“

You are rationalizing cowardly football..

Therefore you ARE AN APOLOGIST!

GUtless Fuq.

Cull my diq with your lips..

"You defend taking the field goals…"

... No, 'defend' not at all. FGs are easier than TDs mathematically ... but I have over and over again criticized this team for settling for field goals.

"You defending the coach and about being entrenched in “safe plays”

.. No, 'defending' not at all. "unfortunately for us' is a negative, 'entrenched in minimizing risk' is a negative ... I am pointing out the reason why this coach defers to 'safe plays'. Not supporting it.

"You are rationalizing cowardly football"

... No, not at all. 'cajones play a part' (do you know what cajones are?) AS WELL AS being too narrow-minded to open it up. The coaches are cowardly when they only play for field goals (and stupid when they do that with nothing but kicker problems)

Fans? I don't know anybody in here well enough to say they are cowardly. But I do think they are in denial if they think a missed field goal is the only reason a game is lost that way.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/20/2021 4:00:16 PM >

Post #: 659

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 2:45:16 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

nm

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/20/2021 3:01:23 PM >

Post #: 660

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 3:55:36 PM

David F.

Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15

The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 661

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 4:03:35 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 38935
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15

The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.

Pretty accurate description if you ask me.

_____________________________

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Frank Zappa

Post #: 662

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 4:13:20 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 38935
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

About the FG and being aggressive and going for the TD.

If you are in a position to win with a FG you don't risk it by throwing passes that could be intercepted.

There are IMHO exactly zero coaches that will actually risk that in that situation. You take the safe play, run the ball, protect the ball then win with the kick.

The problem is you have to trust your kicker to make the kick. We had the Cardinals beat, all Joseph had to do was hit a relative chip shot. Why risk that potential win throwing towards the endzone? We had the Panthers beat in regulation, all Joseph had to do was what he did the week before and hit a game winning FG.

Sometimes you try for the win and it backfires. Just ask Sean McDermott. Sometimes you go for the win and it works, for a moment, like the Lions did going for 2 vs us. But winning teams know you just have to get the ball to about the 35 or so yard line to win with a FG. They don't take many chances from there normally once they can win with the FG.

< Message edited by Trekgeekscott -- 10/20/2021 4:14:39 PM >

_____________________________

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Frank Zappa

Post #: 663

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 4:26:07 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

Chase McLaughlin, on our practice squad for 2 months last season, now 9/9 on field goals (3/3 on 50+ yards) and 15/15 on extra points. Another one that got away.

Cle claimed him on waivers in May, when the Vikings---let me check---had no kickers who had proven to be effective in 2020. They knew him, knew his potential, looked at their roster and said, "No, we're good...."

Post #: 664

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 4:26:42 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

Chase McLaughlin, on our practice squad for 2 months last season, now 9/9 on field goals (3/3 on 50+ yards) and 15/15 on extra points. Another one that got away.

Zim would've ruined him. It's what he does.

Good point. Lost my head.

Post #: 665

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 5:00:28 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Ezra Cleveland - 89 snaps (100%) Cleveland has been up and down this year, but Sunday was a down. Overall Grade 52.1, Pass Block 47.8, Run Block 53.0. Season grade is 57.3, 52nd ranked OG out of 72.

Garrett Bradbury - 89 snaps (100%) Bradbury is not good. He and Udoh are competing to be the worst OL on the team. Season grade from PFF is 56.0. Bradbury is ok in the run game, but he struggles mightily if he is asked to anchor down and block a DT. I think he is just too small to play C effectively. Overall Grade 54.5, Pass Block 32.7, Run Block 59.4. 26th ranked C for the year out of 34.

Oli Udoh - 89 snaps (100%) Woof, the worst player on the field for the Vikings on Sunday. 3 holdings penalties (2 accepted) and a false start. He struggled in what was a homecoming game for him. Udoh had 50 family members in the stands and I felt bad for him and the family that had to watch. After a promising start to the year, Udoh has really struggled. Udoh was ok pass blocking, when he wasn’t being called for holds. Overall Grade 40.3 (worst on the team), Pass Block 59.8, Run Block 41.4 54th ranked OG in the league out of 72.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 666

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 5:03:27 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Armon Watts - 36 plays (49%) Watts was the best player on the field IMO. PFF grade of 91.8. He was a beast on Sunday. He is really coming through strong at DT filling in for Pierce. I, and many others, hope to see Watts keep the starting gig when Pierce is back. 4 pressures from the DT is impressive. Watts had a sack that forced a fumbled (recovered by Tomlinson). The fumble led to the missed FG, but could’ve iced the game. He had another tackle for a loss on Hubbard that forced the Panthers into a 3rd and long and held them to a FG after a Viking 3 and out. Season Grade is 81.5 and 7th best Interior DL out of 119.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 667

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 5:08:21 PM

jbusse

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

Some former Vikings and how they're performing this year. PFF so take it with a grain of salt. Besides the kickers, looks like the main regret would be giving up on Hughes and perhaps not protecting Epps. Reiff certainly would have helped early on.

PFF Player, Position, Team, % of relevant snaps played
-------------------------------------------------------------
84.3 Chase McLaughlin, K, Browns, 100%
74.4 Teddy Bridgewater, QB, Broncos, 93%
72.6 Brandon Zylstra, WR, Panthers, 25%
72.4 Mike Hughes, CB, Chiefs, 61%
70.8 Daniel Carlson, K, Raiders, 100%
65.5 Marcus Epps, S, Eagles, 41%
64.3 Elijah Lee, LB, Browns 12%
64.1 Mike Remmers, T, Chiefs, 20%
62.6 Jerick McKinnon, RB, Chiefs, 16%
62.4 Shamar Stephen, DT, Broncos, 30%
62.0 Riley Reiff, T, Bengals, 99%
59.7 Andrew Sendejo, S, Colts, 32%
57.4 Taylor Heineke, QB, WashFballTm, 96%
55.8 Xavier Rhodes, CB, Colts, 60%
54.2 Ifeadi Odenigbo, DE, Browns, 6%
53.0 Anthony Harris, S, Eagles, 98%
52.7 Case Keenum, QB, Browns, 2%
52.7 Mike Boone, RB, Broncos, 1%
52.7 Laquon Treadwell, WR, Jaguars, 4%
51.8 Trae Waynes, CB, Bengals, 23%
34.1 Eric Wilson, LB, Eagles, 60%
NA Brett Jones, G, Broncos, 0%
NA Aviante Collins, T, Cowboys, 0%

Post #: 668

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 6:22:55 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Interesting.

Never understood why we traded Hughes. He was finally healthy.

Letting McLaughlin walk was clearly a mistake.

Happy for Teddy. Wish he was still here.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 669

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/20/2021 6:42:16 PM

jbusse

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Armon Watts - 36 plays (49%) Watts was the best player on the field IMO. PFF grade of 91.8. He was a beast on Sunday. He is really coming through strong at DT filling in for Pierce. I, and many others, hope to see Watts keep the starting gig when Pierce is back. 4 pressures from the DT is impressive. Watts had a sack that forced a fumbled (recovered by Tomlinson). The fumble led to the missed FG, but could’ve iced the game. He had another tackle for a loss on Hubbard that forced the Panthers into a 3rd and long and held them to a FG after a Viking 3 and out. Season Grade is 81.5 and 7th best Interior DL out of 119.

Interesting tidbit is Watts was drafted in the 6th round at pick #190 followed immediately by Marcus Epps at #191 and Oli Udoh 2 picks later at #193.

Post #: 670

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 1:34:35 AM

thebigo

Posts: 28272
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Interesting.

Never understood why we traded Hughes. He was finally healthy.

Letting McLaughlin walk was clearly a mistake.

Happy for Teddy. Wish he was still here.

How was/is anyone supposed to know if Hughes was/is finally healthy?

< Message edited by thebigo -- 10/21/2021 10:54:12 AM >

Post #: 671

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 9:27:22 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9421
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15

The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.

Pretty accurate description if you ask me.

"They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone."

...and no matter which, the ride is absolutely maddening.

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 672

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 10:33:22 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15

The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.

Pretty accurate description if you ask me.

"They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone."

...and no matter which, the ride is absolutely maddening.

Next five weeks will define what this team is. Vikings are horrible against teams with winning records the past several years. Talk about "hot streaks" "figuring things out" "coming around" end up being complete b.s. when you look at the season in totality and the records of the teams they beat and lost to.

Post #: 673

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 11:51:06 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33734
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.

Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.

We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

Cowardly? No, that's way over the top. If you are including fans. Are you?

Every situation is different but for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG than to get the ball into the endzone.

Some coaches and QBs refuse to give up on a death-blow TD until they are out of downs or clock ... so they HAVE to settle for a FG.

Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded.

And yes, as well as he's played, Cousins has a big part in our methodical approach to working down the field for a kick (and ignoring riskier throws that might put the game away with a TD).

I do agree that some fans put far too much blame for a loss on a missed walk-off FG.

IMO that is denial ... but cowardly? C'mon.

FGs under 40 yards are close to automatic. Well over 90%. Trying for a TD instead of kicking the FG I'm sure has a less than 90% success rate. It's just that it didn't work out for us that has us saying go for the TD.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 674

RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 12:01:17 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33734
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

About the FG and being aggressive and going for the TD.

If you are in a position to win with a FG you don't risk it by throwing passes that could be intercepted.

There are IMHO exactly zero coaches that will actually risk that in that situation. You take the safe play, run the ball, protect the ball then win with the kick.

The problem is you have to trust your kicker to make the kick. We had the Cardinals beat, all Joseph had to do was hit a relative chip shot. Why risk that potential win throwing towards the endzone? We had the Panthers beat in regulation, all Joseph had to do was what he did the week before and hit a game winning FG.

Sometimes you try for the win and it backfires. Just ask Sean McDermott. Sometimes you go for the win and it works, for a moment, like the Lions did going for 2 vs us. But winning teams know you just have to get the ball to about the 35 or so yard line to win with a FG. They don't take many chances from there normally once they can win with the FG.

You really want the ball inside the 30. Once you get there FGs are a very high percentage play. 35 you are still very much looking for more yards. Missing from 37 against Arizona is just not supposed to happen.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 675