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RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 12:43:57 PM   
ratoppenheimer


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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I still wouldn't trust Carlson for a game winner in a playoff game, despite his regular season success.

I am not sure if Zimmer ruins kickers, or if he doesn't convey confidence, or whatever it is winning HCs convey to their kickers.


Blair Walsh was all pro. Dan Bailey was the most accurate kicker in history. Carlson missed three of four FGs for us in the TWO GAMES we kept him (he was one of only two drafted kickers that year - the other was Jason Sanders). Since we cut him he's missed 12 total out of 92. That's 87% including being 7 of 11 from 50+.

Based on post game comments about Joseph, Zimmer seems committed to being more positive or at least, giving a longer leash to the kicker this year.

An acknowledgement probably of his past meddling.

Of course, its a catch-22 right? Drop the axe too soon and you might be rejecting a Carlson ... hang on too long and your Walsh has more opportunities to not get it right.

I think Spielman and Zimmer have tried different things but, at this point, I'm not sure they can get out of their own way ... even when they just stand and watch and do nothing.

I've noticed that even prior to this last hiccup as well.

This one didn't cost them the game, though, so maybe it made swallowing the pill a little easier.


We just can't expect our kickers to be 100%. When Green Bay played Cincinnati Mason Crosby missed THREE field goals - and Green Bay still won. The offenses job isn't over once we're in field goal range and the kick should never be taken for granted. This isn't a knock on Cousins (who has been mostly excellent this season) but more a knock on the coaches and fans - driving the team into field goal range DOES NOT constitute a game-winning drive. It's only a game-winning-drive if the kicker makes it. If you don't want to take an 80% chance on a win then scheme for a TD. Blaming your kicker for losses is a coward's way out.

Cowardly? No, that's way over the top. If you are including fans. Are you?

Every situation is different but for the most part, your odds are far better to get in field position and kick a FG than to get the ball into the endzone.

Some coaches and QBs refuse to give up on a death-blow TD until they are out of downs or clock ... so they HAVE to settle for a FG.

Unfortunately for us, we have a coach and a QB that are so entrenched in minimizing risk, they default to field goal position way too early. I suppose Cajones has a part in that but IMO its more about being closed-minded.

And yes, as well as he's played, Cousins has a big part in our methodical approach to working down the field for a kick (and ignoring riskier throws that might put the game away with a TD).

I do agree that some fans put far too much blame for a loss on a missed walk-off FG.

IMO that is denial ... but cowardly? C'mon.

FGs under 40 yards are close to automatic. Well over 90%. Trying for a TD instead of kicking the FG I'm sure has a less than 90% success rate. It's just that it didn't work out for us that has us saying go for the TD.


zimmer seemed to give up on shortening the fg's on those last three drives against Carolina - that turned out the be a problem....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 676
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 1:22:34 PM   
David F.


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https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/d4h2r0/kicker_accuracy_accounting_for_distance/

Distance Percent # of attempts
18 Yards 100% 15
19 Yards 100% 100
20 Yards 99.51% 202
21 Yards 97.67% 215
22 Yards 98.02% 253
23 Yards 98.19% 277
24 Yards 94.62% 223
25 Yards 99.23% 261
26 Yards 96.88% 224
27 Yards 97.00% 267
28 Yards 95% 300
29 Yards 94.36% 266
30 Yards 93.07% 274
31 Yards 94.49% 272
32 Yards 94.62% 260
33 Yards 94.10% 339
34 Yards 86.04% 265
35 Yards 90.55% 275
36 Yards 87.76% 286
37 Yards 84.75% 295
38 Yards 83.29% 353
39 Yards 85.77% 274
40 Yards 85.21% 311
41 Yards 83.51% 279
42 Yards 81.65% 278
43 Yards 77.04% 331
44 Yards 80.31% 259
45 Yards 78.82% 288
46 Yards 73.78% 286
47 Yards 75.09% 289
48 Yards 68.60% 363
49 Yards 71.22% 278
50 Yards 71.05% 266
51 Yards 67.10% 231
52 Yards 59.92% 237
53 Yards 69.16% 227
54 Yards 61.27% 142
55 Yards 53.57% 112
56 Yards 59.32% 59
57 Yards 54.05% 37
58 Yards 36.67% 30
59 Yards 55.56% 18
60 Yards 30% 10
61 Yards 31.25% 16
62 Yards 28.57% 7
63 Yards 25% 12
64 Yards 33.33% 3
65 Yards 0% 2
66 Yards 0% 4
67 Yards 0% 1
68 Yards 0% 1
69 Yards 0% 0
70 Yards 0% 0
71 Yards 0% 1


_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 677
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 1:50:34 PM   
paulgly

 

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Thank you David F. I think that illustrates my biggest frustration with the strategy in AZ, Detroit, and Carolina. The change in % made from 37 to 32 yards is 9%. In AZ, does anyone believe the chances of a fumble, interception, penalty combined on a single play are anywhere near 9%? Especially when the Vikes were rolling like they were? Get at least 5 more yards if you can. I would absolutely want to improve the odds 9% - and if you saw that Joseph kick, if it were 5-10 yards closer, I think it was good.

Detroit game - a total give up play that Mattison then fumbles anyway.

Then the Carolina game - they literally took themselves out of any semblance FG range prior to Carolina's last drive with a 'safe' running play call that lost 3 yards

Is playing it safe ever really the safest play?
Post #: 678
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 2:17:36 PM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulgly

Thank you David F. I think that illustrates my biggest frustration with the strategy in AZ, Detroit, and Carolina. The change in % made from 37 to 32 yards is 9%. In AZ, does anyone believe the chances of a fumble, interception, penalty combined on a single play are anywhere near 9%? Especially when the Vikes were rolling like they were? Get at least 5 more yards if you can. I would absolutely want to improve the odds 9% - and if you saw that Joseph kick, if it were 5-10 yards closer, I think it was good.

Detroit game - a total give up play that Mattison then fumbles anyway.

Then the Carolina game - they literally took themselves out of any semblance FG range prior to Carolina's last drive with a 'safe' running play call that lost 3 yards

Is playing it safe ever really the safest play?


And (if you clicked the link you'd see) those numbers are for the entire NFL from 2009 to 2019. Our very own history with field goals is not just worse than average - we're the very worst. And we're not just the very worst - we're nearly a statistical anomaly it's so bad. Try for touchdowns when you can and if you can't then still use all your clock and downs to get as close as possible. Are the chances of getting a touchdown worse than a field goal? Duh. That's also why you get MORE POINTS for them.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 679
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 6:09:28 PM   
David F.


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Status: offline

Ryan Boser
@Ryan_Boser
·
27m
Vikings offense is 5th in YPG and 14th in PPG. Leaving points on the field exactly like last year. Missed kicks and cowardly coaching.


_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 680
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 6:21:39 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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Joined: 7/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulgly

Thank you David F. I think that illustrates my biggest frustration with the strategy in AZ, Detroit, and Carolina. The change in % made from 37 to 32 yards is 9%. In AZ, does anyone believe the chances of a fumble, interception, penalty combined on a single play are anywhere near 9%? Especially when the Vikes were rolling like they were? Get at least 5 more yards if you can. I would absolutely want to improve the odds 9% - and if you saw that Joseph kick, if it were 5-10 yards closer, I think it was good.

Detroit game - a total give up play that Mattison then fumbles anyway.

Then the Carolina game - they literally took themselves out of any semblance FG range prior to Carolina's last drive with a 'safe' running play call that lost 3 yards

Is playing it safe ever really the safest play?


And (if you clicked the link you'd see) those numbers are for the entire NFL from 2009 to 2019. Our very own history with field goals is not just worse than average - we're the very worst. And we're not just the very worst - we're nearly a statistical anomaly it's so bad. Try for touchdowns when you can and if you can't then still use all your clock and downs to get as close as possible. Are the chances of getting a touchdown worse than a field goal? Duh. That's also why you get MORE POINTS for them.

I think your statement should seem obvious but it has gotten lost a little bit in the conversation ...

as if driving to get in field goal range excludes taking a shot or two down the field and vice versa.

That being said, it frustrates me that we have a veteran QB playing out of his gourd and very good weapons to attack downfield (in spite of the OL) ... and we are still playing a brand of offense that is based on a thousand paper cuts (even somewhat in the two minute drill): time of possession ... minimize mistakes ... keep it close ... all the cliches. No wonder games have been coming down to the wire.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/21/2021 7:38:45 PM >
Post #: 681
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 7:41:35 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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nm

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/21/2021 8:04:24 PM >
Post #: 682
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 7:48:40 PM   
joejitsu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.


Ryan Boser
@Ryan_Boser
·
27m
Vikings offense is 5th in YPG and 14th in PPG. Leaving points on the field exactly like last year. Missed kicks and cowardly coaching.



Gee. Big surprise. I wonder if the Wilf's have noticed it yet?
Post #: 683
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 8:02:04 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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I sure don't miss Teddy. I may be in the minority but that little pop gun arm isn't gonna cut it these days.
Post #: 684
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 8:26:56 PM   
Karl Juhnke


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Yeah. Watching Teddy tonight. Great guy and I root for him. But he should be a career backup. He’s not the answer for any team.
Post #: 685
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 8:31:03 PM   
David Levine


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Cleveland has given up 3 total points in the final 2 minutes of the first half this year.

I guess the Apple really does fall VERY, VERY far from the tree…
Post #: 686
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 8:34:16 PM   
marty


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The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.


So, with the 17 game schedule, what do you think, this Vikings team will endup 9-8, or 8-9 ?

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 687
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 9:18:17 PM   
beo

 

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Anybody watching the Case vs Teddy bowl?

Case is a hell of a gamer...
Post #: 688
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 9:24:51 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

Anybody watching the Case vs Teddy bowl?

Case is a hell of a gamer...

I'm watching Teddy throw 2 yard passes constantly. The Broncos rely on broken tackles like crazy.
Post #: 689
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 9:32:56 PM   
beo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

Anybody watching the Case vs Teddy bowl?

Case is a hell of a gamer...

I'm watching Teddy throw 2 yard passes constantly. The Broncos rely on broken tackles like crazy.


Yeah, Teddy might be a great guy... but he is a backup qb...
Post #: 690
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 9:53:16 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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Elway probably had a stronger arm than Teddy does currently in 4th grade.
Post #: 691
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/21/2021 10:06:50 PM   
beo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

Elway probably had a stronger arm than Teddy does currently in 4th grade.


LOL

We complain about run, run, pass short of the sticks...

Maybe more painful:
0 yard pass
2 yard pass
screen pass
Post #: 692
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 9:01:41 AM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

Elway probably had a stronger arm than Teddy does currently in 4th grade.


LOL

We complain about run, run, pass short of the sticks...

Maybe more painful:
0 yard pass
2 yard pass
screen pass

That's Pat Shurmer calling the plays

< Message edited by thebigo -- 10/22/2021 9:03:50 AM >
Post #: 693
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 10:20:28 AM   
jbusse

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

Elway probably had a stronger arm than Teddy does currently in 4th grade.


LOL

We complain about run, run, pass short of the sticks...

Maybe more painful:
0 yard pass
2 yard pass
screen pass

That's Pat Shurmer calling the plays

Shurmer was good with the Vikings. I guess he doesn't have a lot of confidence in the QB.
Post #: 694
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 10:43:48 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Ezra Cleveland - 89 snaps (100%) Cleveland has been up and down this year, but Sunday was a down. Overall Grade 52.1, Pass Block 47.8, Run Block 53.0. Season grade is 57.3, 52nd ranked OG out of 72.

Garrett Bradbury - 89 snaps (100%) Bradbury is not good. He and Udoh are competing to be the worst OL on the team. Season grade from PFF is 56.0. Bradbury is ok in the run game, but he struggles mightily if he is asked to anchor down and block a DT. I think he is just too small to play C effectively. Overall Grade 54.5, Pass Block 32.7, Run Block 59.4. 26th ranked C for the year out of 34.

Oli Udoh - 89 snaps (100%) Woof, the worst player on the field for the Vikings on Sunday. 3 holdings penalties (2 accepted) and a false start. He struggled in what was a homecoming game for him. Udoh had 50 family members in the stands and I felt bad for him and the family that had to watch. After a promising start to the year, Udoh has really struggled. Udoh was ok pass blocking, when he wasn’t being called for holds. Overall Grade 40.3 (worst on the team), Pass Block 59.8, Run Block 41.4 54th ranked OG in the league out of 72.



Some fans say "Run it back" when referring to repeating as champions. Vikings fans say "Run it back" when referring to fixing the OL.
Post #: 695
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 10:47:21 AM   
David Levine


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Teddy barely has an NFL arm, but he never should've been playing last night. Kid could barely walk because of a foot injury. He gutted it out, but he couldn't plant properly, so his throws were all arm last night. He never had a chance.
Post #: 696
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 10:48:31 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.


Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15



The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday
, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.


Pretty accurate description if you ask me.



"They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone."


...and no matter which, the ride is absolutely maddening.


Next five weeks will define what this team is. Vikings are horrible against teams with winning records the past several years. Talk about "hot streaks" "figuring things out" "coming around" end up being complete b.s. when you look at the season in totality and the records of the teams they beat and lost to.


Yep. As I said, our opponents combined W/L record so far this year is 18-18.

Playing winning teams and at Chicago - no matter their record - at night in the winter? Forget it.
Post #: 697
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 11:50:48 AM   
ronhextall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Teddy barely has an NFL arm, but he never should've been playing last night. Kid could barely walk because of a foot injury. He gutted it out, but he couldn't plant properly, so his throws were all arm last night. He never had a chance.


I am convinced the Broncos think they have Aaron Rodgers "in the bag" for next season and they are just marking time until then.
Post #: 698
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 11:57:47 AM   
bstinger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.


Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15



The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday
, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.


Pretty accurate description if you ask me.



"They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone."


...and no matter which, the ride is absolutely maddening.


Next five weeks will define what this team is. Vikings are horrible against teams with winning records the past several years. Talk about "hot streaks" "figuring things out" "coming around" end up being complete b.s. when you look at the season in totality and the records of the teams they beat and lost to.


Yep. As I said, our opponents combined W/L record so far this year is 18-18.

Playing winning teams and at Chicago - no matter their record - at night in the winter? Forget it.

Packers opponents are 15-19.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 699
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/22/2021 12:52:19 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.


Rank
14
1
Minnesota Vikings
Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 15



The Vikings have no idea how to play a normal game. For the second straight week, Mike Zimmer's team blew a two-score lead in the final minutes against an inferior opponent, and for the second straight week, Minnesota managed to survive an epic near-collapse. Greg Joseph set off a celebration with a long field goal in Week 5; on Sunday
, it was Kirk Cousins' 27-yard dime to K.J. Osborn to seal a 34-28 overtime win over the Panthers. The Vikings are strange. They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone. As such, 3-3 feels about right heading into their bye. Minnesota is inconsistent, maddening ... and intriguing.


Pretty accurate description if you ask me.



"They feel like a team that can beat anyone ... or lose to anyone."


...and no matter which, the ride is absolutely maddening.


Next five weeks will define what this team is. Vikings are horrible against teams with winning records the past several years. Talk about "hot streaks" "figuring things out" "coming around" end up being complete b.s. when you look at the season in totality and the records of the teams they beat and lost to.


Yep. As I said, our opponents combined W/L record so far this year is 18-18.

Playing winning teams and at Chicago - no matter their record - at night in the winter? Forget it.

Packers opponents are 15-19.


And in six days it will be 24-23.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 700
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