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RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 5:47:21 AM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18339
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		Dustin Baker
@DustBaker
·
13h
The Vikings have been flagged for offensive holding 17 times in 6 games. This is the most offensive holding penalties in the NFL thru 7 weeks.

- ouch!
Post #: 726
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 8:18:53 AM   
jbusse

 

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Dustin Baker
@DustBaker
·
13h
The Vikings have been flagged for offensive holding 17 times in 6 games. This is the most offensive holding penalties in the NFL thru 7 weeks.

- ouch!

I wonder who has the fewest. Any guesses?

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html?sort=oh
Post #: 727
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 9:46:01 AM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 728
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 10:15:27 AM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 14



On a recent edition of the Around The NFL Podcast, we probed Vikings beat reporter Arif Hasan on the relationship between Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins. The tension between the head coach and starting quarterback seems palpable at times, but Hasan asserted that any frustrations with Cousins as a QB (or teammate) are largely negated by his play. The veteran might not ever inspire lengthy monologues about his leadership abilities, but he stacks numbers, year after year. The production will sneak up on you: In 58 games as Minnesota's starter, Cousins has completed over 69 percent of his 1,805 attempts for 104 touchdowns and just 31 interceptions. His passer rating of 103.9 over that span represents the production of a star. Why don't we see him that way?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 729
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 11:10:51 AM   
marty


Posts: 12893
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe the absence of getting early leads against good teams, the absence of 12-4 seasons, and lack of playoff wins ?

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 730
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 11:29:02 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 14



On a recent edition of the Around The NFL Podcast, we probed Vikings beat reporter Arif Hasan on the relationship between Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins. The tension between the head coach and starting quarterback seems palpable at times, but Hasan asserted that any frustrations with Cousins as a QB (or teammate) are largely negated by his play. The veteran might not ever inspire lengthy monologues about his leadership abilities, but he stacks numbers, year after year. The production will sneak up on you: In 58 games as Minnesota's starter, Cousins has completed over 69 percent of his 1,805 attempts for 104 touchdowns and just 31 interceptions. His passer rating of 103.9 over that span represents the production of a star. Why don't we see him that way?

He’s not a star because he’s a point guard not a shooter.

He expertly prepares and executes the play call verbatim. Excellent arm talent. Can expertly get it to his skill players or get in field goal range.

It doesn’t help that he plays for a boob but …

the bottomline is, he’s not trying to beat the defense with his arm … he’s just taking whatever the defense is giving and hoping for someone else to make the play.
Post #: 731
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:25:56 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38935
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.

_____________________________

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Frank Zappa
Post #: 732
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:33:03 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.


MN Researcher
@veith_daniel
Updated Mike Zimmer records: Assuming AZ finishes >.500, Zimmer's record falls below .300 against teams that finish the season with a winning record.

Only 1 HC remains below Zimmer with a worse record that coached for 4+ seasons in the same stretch of seasons : Jay Gruden (.211)

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 733
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:35:37 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		Posted byu/rawndale
10 months ago
Mike Zimmer and the Vikings are 4-17 against winning teams the last 3 years. What do you think is the reasoning for that ?
Of those 4 wins, 2 were against the 9-7 Eagles who were not good teams. The other 2 were the WC win against Saints and the Packer win this year, 2 very impressive wins.

That being said, the record against winning teams is really bad among the top half of coaches. It seems like Vikings never have a really signature dominant win against a good team.

For reference, over the last 3 years here is the record against winning teams:

Zimmer: 4-17

McVay: 11-10

Tomlin: 7-11

Vraebel: 10-12

Nagy: 7-12

I didn’t even include the elite coaches like Reid and BB. Even Nagy and the Bears have been better the last 3 years.

What do y’all think is the reasoning for such a bad record against winning teams ?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 734
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:35:39 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 77428
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.


Winners find ways to win those games. Losers find ways to lose them.

If two other plays go differently we could be 1-5.
Post #: 735
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:42:45 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 44851
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.


Winners find ways to win those games. Losers find ways to lose them.

If two other plays go differently we could be 1-5.

Yep. That's pretty much always the case when somebody says...a couple of breaks go our way and we have a great record. They are usually also a couple of breaks from being even worse.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 736
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 12:58:38 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10842
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.


Winners find ways to win those games. Losers find ways to lose them.

If two other plays go differently we could be 1-5.

Yep. That's pretty much always the case when somebody says...a couple of breaks go our way and we have a great record. They are usually also a couple of breaks from being even worse.


And they always point to one play like a missed FG or fumble but won't look deeper like say perhaps Justin Jefferson has been 100% uncoverable for the entire first half and has five or six catches yet we ABANDON him in the second half for the sake of 'balance' or some other product of Zimmer's unhealthy need to control.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 737
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 1:00:51 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 77428
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Coming out of the bye week at 3-3 heading into the meat grinder portion of the schedule. It's not looking good. We've beat Detroit, Carolina, and Seattle. We've lost to Cincinnati, Arizona, and Cleveland.

The records of the teams we beat: 0-7, 3-4, 2-5

The records of the teams we lost to: 7-0, 4-3, 5-2



Nothing has changed. Zimmer beats up on the crap teams and loses to the good teams. We're the very definition of mediocre. I don't see it changing - ever.


We made a fg on one game and we win. Phantom fumble not called and we likely win that too..

We could be 5-1

Your conclusion is a bit broad.


Winners find ways to win those games. Losers find ways to lose them.

If two other plays go differently we could be 1-5.

Yep. That's pretty much always the case when somebody says...a couple of breaks go our way and we have a great record. They are usually also a couple of breaks from being even worse.


I call it "The Losers Lament"...
Post #: 738
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 1:10:37 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28272
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 14



On a recent edition of the Around The NFL Podcast, we probed Vikings beat reporter Arif Hasan on the relationship between Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins. The tension between the head coach and starting quarterback seems palpable at times, but Hasan asserted that any frustrations with Cousins as a QB (or teammate) are largely negated by his play. The veteran might not ever inspire lengthy monologues about his leadership abilities, but he stacks numbers, year after year. The production will sneak up on you: In 58 games as Minnesota's starter, Cousins has completed over 69 percent of his 1,805 attempts for 104 touchdowns and just 31 interceptions. His passer rating of 103.9 over that span represents the production of a star. Why don't we see him that way?

He’s not a star because he’s a point guard not a shooter.

He expertly prepares and executes the play call verbatim. Excellent arm talent. Can expertly get it to his skill players or get in field goal range.

It doesn’t help that he plays for a boob but …

the bottomline is, he’s not trying to beat the defense with his arm … he’s just taking whatever the defense is giving and hoping for someone else to make the play.

As evidenced by the last play of the last game.
Post #: 739
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 1:39:46 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Minnesota Vikings
3-3
Previous rank: No. 14



On a recent edition of the Around The NFL Podcast, we probed Vikings beat reporter Arif Hasan on the relationship between Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins. The tension between the head coach and starting quarterback seems palpable at times, but Hasan asserted that any frustrations with Cousins as a QB (or teammate) are largely negated by his play. The veteran might not ever inspire lengthy monologues about his leadership abilities, but he stacks numbers, year after year. The production will sneak up on you: In 58 games as Minnesota's starter, Cousins has completed over 69 percent of his 1,805 attempts for 104 touchdowns and just 31 interceptions. His passer rating of 103.9 over that span represents the production of a star. Why don't we see him that way?

He’s not a star because he’s a point guard not a shooter.

He expertly prepares and executes the play call verbatim. Excellent arm talent. Can expertly get it to his skill players or get in field goal range.

It doesn’t help that he plays for a boob but …

the bottomline is, he’s not trying to beat the defense with his arm … he’s just taking whatever the defense is giving and hoping for someone else to make the play.

As evidenced by the last play of the last game.

You're right ... one play is indicative of everything else.
Post #: 740
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 2:44:53 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		To be fair to Cousins, he has engineered 18 game winning drives over his career.

Which is far more than I realized. It puts him currently at #69 all time (for game winning drives). there are obviously a bazillion variables to that ...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

I haven't found current stats for game winning walk-off TDs ...

Someone called footballperspective.com has Cousins with 7 game winning TDs before 2020 ... did he throw any last season? I honestly can't remember. The NO playoff game and last weekend are the only 2 TDs I do remember ...

https://www.footballperspective.com/which-quarterback-has-thrown-the-most-game-winning-touchdowns-through-2019/

If no, he currently has 8 walk off TDs (incl CAR last weekend) which, again, is more than I have been giving him credit for.

.....

I dunno. Even watching him play really well this year ... it just feels like he is too risk-averse, too methodical ... taking what he can get over looking downfield for chunk plays.

Then again, 57-57-2 ... he gets way too much blame and credit ... but 57-57-2

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 10/26/2021 2:47:50 PM >
Post #: 741
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 3:47:02 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38935
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

To be fair to Cousins, he has engineered 18 game winning drives over his career.

Which is far more than I realized. It puts him currently at #69 all time (for game winning drives). there are obviously a bazillion variables to that ...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

I haven't found current stats for game winning walk-off TDs ...

Someone called footballperspective.com has Cousins with 7 game winning TDs before 2020 ... did he throw any last season? I honestly can't remember. The NO playoff game and last weekend are the only 2 TDs I do remember ...

https://www.footballperspective.com/which-quarterback-has-thrown-the-most-game-winning-touchdowns-through-2019/

If no, he currently has 8 walk off TDs (incl CAR last weekend) which, again, is more than I have been giving him credit for.

.....

I dunno. Even watching him play really well this year ... it just feels like he is too risk-averse, too methodical ... taking what he can get over looking downfield for chunk plays.

Then again, 57-57-2 ... he gets way too much blame and credit ... but 57-57-2


Vs Carolina last year too. to Beebe

_____________________________

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Frank Zappa
Post #: 742
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 4:30:54 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28272
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

To be fair to Cousins, he has engineered 18 game winning drives over his career.

Which is far more than I realized. It puts him currently at #69 all time (for game winning drives). there are obviously a bazillion variables to that ...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

I haven't found current stats for game winning walk-off TDs ...

Someone called footballperspective.com has Cousins with 7 game winning TDs before 2020 ... did he throw any last season? I honestly can't remember. The NO playoff game and last weekend are the only 2 TDs I do remember ...

https://www.footballperspective.com/which-quarterback-has-thrown-the-most-game-winning-touchdowns-through-2019/

If no, he currently has 8 walk off TDs (incl CAR last weekend) which, again, is more than I have been giving him credit for.

.....

I dunno. Even watching him play really well this year ... it just feels like he is too risk-averse, too methodical ... taking what he can get over looking downfield for chunk plays.

Then again, 57-57-2 ... he gets way too much blame and credit ... but 57-57-2


There should be a stat "shoulda-been-game-winning-drive". I remember Daunte Culpepper leading us back for leads in the 4th quarter (sometimes multiple times anybody remember the Doug O'brien/Buffalo game?) many times, yet the defense would immediately piss the lead away. And Culpepper got the rep as a QB who couldn't rally a team.
Post #: 743
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 4:32:38 PM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40145
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		The biggest thing right now for me with Zimmer is his disingenuous comment of we have to learn to step on opponents throats when we have the chance. When everything runs under his risk adverse umbrella...don't say we...

If he was running a fat camp he'd be the counselor sneaking midnight snacks and then saying we have to be more disciplined.
Post #: 744
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 4:36:02 PM   
ronhextall


Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		Like it or not Cousins will be the QB next year also I am sure. Draft doesn't look sexy at all for QBs and I doubt Rodgers will pull a #4 and come to Minnesota.

He is throws darts when given time, it's Speilman's fault he didn't build a decent line around him.

lose some more old guys on defense and build up the Oline some more and I would love to see what an offensive minded coach could do with the Vikings.
Post #: 745
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 6:34:02 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

The biggest thing right now for me with Zimmer is his disingenuous comment of we have to learn to step on opponents throats when we have the chance. When everything runs under his risk adverse umbrella...don't say we...

If he was running a fat camp he'd be the counselor sneaking midnight snacks and then saying we have to be more disciplined.

Very good post.
Post #: 746
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 6:54:21 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5824
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

To be fair to Cousins, he has engineered 18 game winning drives over his career.

Which is far more than I realized. It puts him currently at #69 all time (for game winning drives). there are obviously a bazillion variables to that ...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

I haven't found current stats for game winning walk-off TDs ...

Someone called footballperspective.com has Cousins with 7 game winning TDs before 2020 ... did he throw any last season? I honestly can't remember. The NO playoff game and last weekend are the only 2 TDs I do remember ...

https://www.footballperspective.com/which-quarterback-has-thrown-the-most-game-winning-touchdowns-through-2019/

If no, he currently has 8 walk off TDs (incl CAR last weekend) which, again, is more than I have been giving him credit for.

.....

I dunno. Even watching him play really well this year ... it just feels like he is too risk-averse, too methodical ... taking what he can get over looking downfield for chunk plays.

Then again, 57-57-2 ... he gets way too much blame and credit ... but 57-57-2


There should be a stat "shoulda-been-game-winning-drive". I remember Daunte Culpepper leading us back for leads in the 4th quarter (sometimes multiple times anybody remember the Doug O'brien/Buffalo game?) many times, yet the defense would immediately piss the lead away. And Culpepper got the rep as a QB who couldn't rally a team.

Cousins has more game winning TDs than Two-minute Tommy but unless he does some damage in playoff games, I doubt he will ever reach that level of sentimental value for fans.

But I am biased, for my money he is just too blah.
Post #: 747
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/26/2021 8:47:25 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18339
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Dustin Baker
@DustBaker
·
13h
The Vikings have been flagged for offensive holding 17 times in 6 games. This is the most offensive holding penalties in the NFL thru 7 weeks.

- ouch!

I wonder who has the fewest. Any guesses?

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html?sort=oh


A different kind of news:

The Vikings offensive line has produced its lowest sack% (3.6%) of all time throughout the first six games of the season, a stat dating back to 1970.

The line has only given up 9 sacks through 6 games, which is tied for the lowest in team history.
Post #: 748
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/27/2021 3:19:53 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9421
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

The biggest thing right now for me with Zimmer is his disingenuous comment of we have to learn to step on opponents throats when we have the chance. When everything runs under his risk adverse umbrella...don't say we...

If he was running a fat camp he'd be the counselor sneaking midnight snacks and then saying we have to be more disciplined.



from my perspective, zimmer is the single biggest problem with this team right now...if we had just about any other head coach i'd be confident of making the playoffs this season - with zimmer it's eleven more heart attacks and a bunch of xanax....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 749
RE: General Vikes Talk - 10/27/2021 7:10:17 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

The biggest thing right now for me with Zimmer is his disingenuous comment of we have to learn to step on opponents throats when we have the chance. When everything runs under his risk adverse umbrella...don't say we...

If he was running a fat camp he'd be the counselor sneaking midnight snacks and then saying we have to be more disciplined.

Very good post.

+1

Loved the fat camp reference.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 750
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