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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 5:41:37 PM

Karl Juhnke

Posts: 12881
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

Yeah Cousins should have played better defense on that last Lions drive.

Or, you know, lead the team to more than 6 points in the first half.

Maybe lead the team to a TD before the 6 minute mark of the 3rd?

True but this specific post was about 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins led a dandy one and the defense pissed it away.

Its the same excuse as using Cook's fumble and Joseph's miss ... as if the only points that matter in a game come from the final or next to final drives.

He didn't get it done. Against the worst team in football. End of story.

Again, I agree the offense and Cousins have their problems. But here, we were specifically discussing 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins did the job in the 4th quarter…at least this time.

Post #: 1576

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 5:50:27 PM

odin

Posts: 2296
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline

I heard Goof was 1/8 for 6 yards and 3 sacks under pressure before the last drive started.

I wonder if Zimmer pussed out on the last drive as a reaction to getting burned on the 75 yarder against the puke. The equivalent of Cap'n Cuck's checkdown wimpiness. It was much better to get burned quickly and at least have time to come back than losing that way, especially when pressure was working so well

Post #: 1577

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 5:51:32 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77426
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

Yeah Cousins should have played better defense on that last Lions drive.

Or, you know, lead the team to more than 6 points in the first half.

Maybe lead the team to a TD before the 6 minute mark of the 3rd?

True but this specific post was about 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins led a dandy one and the defense pissed it away.

Its the same excuse as using Cook's fumble and Joseph's miss ... as if the only points that matter in a game come from the final or next to final drives.

He didn't get it done. Against the worst team in football. End of story.

Again, I agree the offense and Cousins have their problems. But here, we were specifically discussing 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins did the job in the 4th quarter…at least this time.

I'd give as much credit to the defense for the go ahead TD as they gave us the ball inside the red zone.

Our previous 4th quarter possession where we had to drive the field was not nearly as effective. (2nd and long with a -2 yard pass, then 3rd and longer that only made it halfway to the sticks...)

< Message edited by David Levine -- 12/6/2021 5:55:39 PM >

Post #: 1578

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 5:54:37 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77426
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

It's probably accurate as they had it up during yesterday's game and they commented on it.

So you would need to know the league-wide data for QBs of middling teams with horrible offensive lines that can't hold up against an all-out rush when they're behind, and you'd also have to come up with a better way of accounting for games like yesterday, and AZ, and Cin, and Dallas, where he did what he was supposed to do in the fourth quarter to win and the defense blew it.

Kirk isn't amazing, or even good, at bringing teams back to win. But this kind of bullshit is a typical cherry-picking of a narrowly defined measure to make someone look really good or really bad when it suits the media's purposes.

It seems more damning than cherry picking that we've won only 2 games in 4 years when trailing going into the 4th.

Post #: 1579

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 6:23:21 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28105
Status: offline

That stat is an 'It' stat that fits Kurt Cousins like a glove. Down entering the 4th? Why watch, because outside of the clock being right twice a day analogy, Cousins isn't going to lead the team to victory. And please don't let it be a prime time game.

Post #: 1580

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 6:26:53 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28105
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

Yeah Cousins should have played better defense on that last Lions drive.

Or, you know, lead the team to more than 6 points in the first half.

Maybe lead the team to a TD before the 6 minute mark of the 3rd?

True but this specific post was about 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins led a dandy one and the defense pissed it away.

Its the same excuse as using Cook's fumble and Joseph's miss ... as if the only points that matter in a game come from the final or next to final drives.

He didn't get it done. Against the worst team in football. End of story.

Again, I agree the offense and Cousins have their problems. But here, we were specifically discussing 4th quarter comebacks. Cousins did the job in the 4th quarter…at least this time.

No, we were discussing Cousins' record when entering the 4th quarter. And no, Cousins did not do the job in the 4th quarter.

Post #: 1581

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 7:24:46 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

That stat is an 'It' stat that fits Kurt Cousins like a glove. Down entering the 4th? Why watch, because outside of the clock being right twice a day analogy, Cousins isn't going to lead the team to victory. And please don't let it be a prime time game.

Except that this year, for the this stat, it's clearly demonstrable that this has much less to do with Kirk than it does Zimmer's defense. So why is the stat about Kirk?

And, BTW, who was the coach in all of those losses?

Post #: 1582

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 7:27:54 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

It's probably accurate as they had it up during yesterday's game and they commented on it.

So you would need to know the league-wide data for QBs of middling teams with horrible offensive lines that can't hold up against an all-out rush when they're behind, and you'd also have to come up with a better way of accounting for games like yesterday, and AZ, and Cin, and Dallas, where he did what he was supposed to do in the fourth quarter to win and the defense blew it.

Kirk isn't amazing, or even good, at bringing teams back to win. But this kind of bullshit is a typical cherry-picking of a narrowly defined measure to make someone look really good or really bad when it suits the media's purposes.

It seems more damning than cherry picking that we've won only 2 games in 4 years when trailing going into the 4th.

It's damning for everyone involved, not just Kirk. And it completely lacks context. What is the overall figure for coming back from behind going into the fourth? Does it matter if your OL can't pass protect? Does it matter if your defense is horrible as well?

Or is it just on Kirk?

Post #: 1583

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 7:32:57 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

Again, I'm not saying Kirk is good at bringing the team from behind. But that kink of misapplication of statistics is so maddening. It's like the expected points added if you go for it on 4th and two. Expected for whom? In what situation? If you have a good line and your QB is Lamar Jackson, it's a lot different if your line sucks and you have a non-runner at QB. But Cris Collinsworth and all his homies trot this shit out like it's the same for everyone.

Post #: 1584

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 8:16:01 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1585

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 8:32:42 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

Zim has been so bad this year it's easy to forget that he's a decent coach, though not good anymore. He's probably still a good DC, but he not a head coach.

Post #: 1586

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 9:07:59 PM

odin

Posts: 2296
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

It's probably accurate as they had it up during yesterday's game and they commented on it.

So you would need to know the league-wide data for QBs of middling teams with horrible offensive lines that can't hold up against an all-out rush when they're behind, and you'd also have to come up with a better way of accounting for games like yesterday, and AZ, and Cin, and Dallas, where he did what he was supposed to do in the fourth quarter to win and the defense blew it.

Kirk isn't amazing, or even good, at bringing teams back to win. But this kind of bullshit is a typical cherry-picking of a narrowly defined measure to make someone look really good or really bad when it suits the media's purposes.

It seems more damning than cherry picking that we've won only 2 games in 4 years when trailing going into the 4th.

"In 2016, just 39 games saw a team trail entering the 4th quarter and go on to win; another two ended in ties. For context, there were 245 games overall in 2016 where a team trailed entering the 4th quarter overall. [1] That means teams won [2] 16.3% of games when trailing entering the 4th quarter. That’s not remarkable at all, and matches the long-term average throughout football history."

http://www.footballperspective.com/games-are-closer-than-ever-now-part-ii/#more-32716

< Message edited by odin -- 12/6/2021 9:09:21 PM >

Post #: 1587

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 9:10:37 PM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19189
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

Zim has been so bad this year it's easy to forget that he's a decent coach, though not good anymore. He's probably still a good DC, but he not a head coach.

Still a good DC? What are you basing that on?

Post #: 1588

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 9:20:37 PM

marty

Posts: 12887
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

A good regular season DC for Cincy, but sucked in the playoffs.

Get rid of Zimmer AND Cousins.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 1589

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 9:23:03 PM

odin

Posts: 2296
Joined: 11/23/2008
Status: offline

"On the surface Cousins does appear to be having a fantastic season. He currently sits first in TD/INT ratio, third in Passer Rating, and third in ANY/A. However, as has been the case throughout his career, basic boxscore stats paper over the deficiencies in Cousins’ game. Looking at more advanced metrics, Kirk ranks seventh in EPA per play and eighth in QBR. Not bad by any stretch but not exactly MVP territory.

But if we look at how Cousins’ stats translate to team level success, the picture gets far uglier. His Vikings only rank 19th in yards per drive and 17th in points per drive. That’s despite playing with a superstar WR, superstar RB, and playing his home games indoors where scoring is more plentiful. This is why Cousins has long been derided for racking up hollow numbers. For whatever reason, his style of play lends itself to a glittery boxscore more than it does to actually winning games.

There is one basic (but ignored) stat that reveals a glitch in the Kirk Cousins matrix: first down rate. Despite being near the top in Passer Rating and ANY/A, Cousins is only 19th in first downs per dropback. That’s almost hard to believe, but it’s true. How can a quarterback rack up yards, touchdowns, and avoid turnovers so efficiently without moving the chains in the process? I haven’t dug through the play-by-play enough to know for sure, but it’s likely a result of too many completions that actually lower his team’s chance of scoring (often referred to as failed completions). Cousins will settle for a checkdown rather than pushing it down the field and risking an incompletion or interception, even if the latter choice is better for the Viking’s bottom line."

http://www.footballperspective.com/adam-steeles-quarterback-recap-week-11/

< Message edited by odin -- 12/6/2021 10:23:07 PM >

Post #: 1590

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 10:03:34 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

Zim has been so bad this year it's easy to forget that he's a decent coach, though not good anymore. He's probably still a good DC, but he not a head coach.

Still a good DC? What are you basing that on?

He's a smart guy who knows football. He will probably always be undermined by being too conservative and by his archaic approach, but he is a capable DC IMO.

Post #: 1591

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 10:03:40 PM

Steve Lentz

Posts: 36191
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

It's probably accurate as they had it up during yesterday's game and they commented on it.

So you would need to know the league-wide data for QBs of middling teams with horrible offensive lines that can't hold up against an all-out rush when they're behind, and you'd also have to come up with a better way of accounting for games like yesterday, and AZ, and Cin, and Dallas, where he did what he was supposed to do in the fourth quarter to win and the defense blew it.

Kirk isn't amazing, or even good, at bringing teams back to win. But this kind of bullshit is a typical cherry-picking of a narrowly defined measure to make someone look really good or really bad when it suits the media's purposes.

Agreed.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"

Post #: 1592

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/6/2021 10:37:32 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

Zimmer may have rubbed himself raw watching NE win throwing just 3 passes.

Post #: 1593

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 1:27:15 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9419
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: odin

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

I've seen this stat thrown around a bunch lately. Not sure if it's accurate.

Kirk Cousins while a MN Viking record when entering the 4th quarter:

Leading: 27-1

Tied: 1-1

Trailing: 2-25-1

If this is true, this is why he isn't regarded as elite.

It's probably accurate as they had it up during yesterday's game and they commented on it.

So you would need to know the league-wide data for QBs of middling teams with horrible offensive lines that can't hold up against an all-out rush when they're behind, and you'd also have to come up with a better way of accounting for games like yesterday, and AZ, and Cin, and Dallas, where he did what he was supposed to do in the fourth quarter to win and the defense blew it.

Kirk isn't amazing, or even good, at bringing teams back to win. But this kind of bullshit is a typical cherry-picking of a narrowly defined measure to make someone look really good or really bad when it suits the media's purposes.

It seems more damning than cherry picking that we've won only 2 games in 4 years when trailing going into the 4th.

"In 2016, just 39 games saw a team trail entering the 4th quarter and go on to win; another two ended in ties. For context, there were 245 games overall in 2016 where a team trailed entering the 4th quarter overall. [1] That means teams won [2] 16.3% of games when trailing entering the 4th quarter. That’s not remarkable at all, and matches the long-term average throughout football history."

http://www.footballperspective.com/games-are-closer-than-ever-now-part-ii/#more-32716

cousins/zimmer at 7% - less than half the average...and, he's runs the worst 2-minute defense in the history of the game - two years in a row...doesn't even learn from last season, or what he's done this season....

< Message edited by ratoppenheimer -- 12/7/2021 1:28:40 AM >

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1594

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 5:40:51 AM

jbusse

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Zimmer may have rubbed himself raw watching NE win throwing just 3 passes.

Belichek is a genius. Who else could come up with an outside the box game plan like that and win against a good team in their stadium?

Post #: 1595

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 7:19:38 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Zimmer may have rubbed himself raw watching NE win throwing just 3 passes.

Belichek is a genius. Who else could come up with an outside the box game plan like that and win against a good team in their stadium?

Belichek proved again last night he may well be the greatest coach in the history of the game. The guy always comes up with a plan to beat another team factoring in weather conditions and by studying their weaknesses and tendencies.

Zim doesn't appear to prepare or even study the other team. Det is just the latest example by not pressuring Goff.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1596

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 7:26:21 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17892
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

Zim has been so bad this year it's easy to forget that he's a decent coach, though not good anymore. He's probably still a good DC, but he not a head coach.

Still a good DC? What are you basing that on?

He's a smart guy who knows football. He will probably always be undermined by being too conservative and by his archaic approach, but he is a capable DC IMO.

Pretty hard to still call him a good DC considering where his defenses have ranked the last few years. Just look at the tape of Detroit's game winning drive and ask yourself if that was the textbook way to stop Goff.

I doubt anyone would be even remotely interested in hiring him as a DC. Really looks like he has his bags packed and doesn't want to do it anymore.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1597

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 7:46:21 AM

jbusse

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Zim has been getting torched on twitter the last 24 hrs. Even Tice sent a tweet stating at least he never lost to the Lions while HC.

It looks like Zim is begging the Wilf's to fire him. In no way shape or form can he be this dumb.

Zim has been so bad this year it's easy to forget that he's a decent coach, though not good anymore. He's probably still a good DC, but he not a head coach.

Still a good DC? What are you basing that on?

He's a smart guy who knows football. He will probably always be undermined by being too conservative and by his archaic approach, but he is a capable DC IMO.

Pretty hard to still call him a good DC considering where his defenses have ranked the last few years. Just look at the tape of Detroit's game winning drive and ask yourself if that was the textbook way to stop Goff.

I doubt anyone would be even remotely interested in hiring him as a DC. Really looks like he has his bags packed and doesn't want to do it anymore.

It was easier when he had talented young defensive players that stayed healthy. With older guys, his defense is too often a step slow, and they're injury-prone.

Post #: 1598

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 7:48:25 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28105
Status: offline

His girlfriend is scouting the coaches waiver wire as we speak. She knows she isn't good enough for the top tier coaches, and might have to go with a Nagy type.

Post #: 1599

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/7/2021 8:54:44 AM

Todd M

Posts: 40145
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: online

Bottom line is: Spielman, Zimmer, and Cousins have failed.

Hold whatever positive light for any or all but there is no denying they've failed to deliver. Somewhat embarrassing at times. 1 10 win season and 1 playoff win/no division titles is failing.

Clean house.

Post #: 1600