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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 6:42:20 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

His first draft sucked. I don't think we need to "wait it out". He needs to do better next year even though we don't have as much capital as we did last go round.

Post #: 3451

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 8:48:00 AM

geoffrey greitzer

Posts: 1450
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

The worst defense in all of football.

not just bad..the worst.

Show some balls..move him aside

Post #: 3452

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:12:33 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 30275
Status: offline

If there is a rebuild, trade Cousins for Mr. Irrelevant Brock Purdy and a pick to free up cap and get a bit of draft capital.

Post #: 3453

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:12:39 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffrey greitzer

The worst defense in all of football.

not just bad..the worst.

Show some balls..move him aside

agreed, after this many weeks the players are not "still adjusting".

The scheme should not ignore the talent at their disposal.

I find it hard to believe different scheme's or priorities wouldn't product better results.

< Message edited by ronhextall -- 12/12/2022 9:28:19 AM >

Post #: 3454

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:12:44 AM

twinsfan

Posts: 64681
Joined: 12/21/2009
Status: offline

Coach Kevin has made Danielle Hunter a subpar player by changing to a 3-4 defense. Why wouldn't you use the strengths of your personnel when building a scheme, rather than forcing players into a scheme like a square peg in a round hole? The contract we gave Hunter, if we stick with this defensive scheme, was like taking the money and burning it in a bonfire.

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Post #: 3455

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:35:35 AM

Karl Juhnke

Posts: 13837
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: geoffrey greitzer

The worst defense in all of football.

not just bad..the worst.

Show some balls..move him aside

agreed, after this many weeks the players are not "still adjusting".

The scheme should not ignore the talent at their disposal.

I find it hard to believe different scheme's or priorities wouldn't product better results.

Outside of about 4 players there isn’t a whole lot of defensive talent. No amount of scheme change is going to fix that.

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8647

Post #: 3456

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:39:06 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 30275
Status: offline

Going back to the offseason, the conversion to the 3-4 was a mess. It lacked the proper personnel, and there were no resources available to help. But it was/is a multi-year deal.

We are already in the red for 2023 cap space and we need to sign Hock. A couple of possible targets:

Adam Theilen is averaging 49 yards and 0.3 TDs per game. Next year his cap hit is $20 million, the year after $21 million.
Harrison Smith aged overnight and his upcoming cap hits are $19, $19, and $22.

Post #: 3457

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:48:02 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Going back to the offseason, the conversion to the 3-4 was a mess. It lacked the proper personnel, and there were no resources available to help. But it was/is a multi-year deal.

We are already in the red for 2023 cap space and we need to sign Hock. A couple of possible targets:

Adam Theilen is averaging 49 yards and 0.3 TDs per game. Next year his cap hit is $20 million, the year after $21 million.
Harrison Smith aged overnight and his upcoming cap hits are $19, $19, and $22.

How many years are we going to hear that we lack the personnel for the 3-4? That seems like the new convenient excuse going forward.

Post #: 3458

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:52:18 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 30275
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Going back to the offseason, the conversion to the 3-4 was a mess. It lacked the proper personnel, and there were no resources available to help. But it was/is a multi-year deal.

We are already in the red for 2023 cap space and we need to sign Hock. A couple of possible targets:

Adam Theilen is averaging 49 yards and 0.3 TDs per game. Next year his cap hit is $20 million, the year after $21 million.
Harrison Smith aged overnight and his upcoming cap hits are $19, $19, and $22.

How many years are we going to hear that we lack the personnel for the 3-4? That seems like the new convenient excuse going forward.

But it's true.

I feel like the 3-4 was simply an experiment that wasted a year. IMO the only real analysis that needs to be done regarding moving back to the 4-3 is how Za Smith would work. And maybe whether the twin stubbies Phillips and Tomlinson can be the DTs.

Post #: 3459

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 9:58:15 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Going back to the offseason, the conversion to the 3-4 was a mess. It lacked the proper personnel, and there were no resources available to help. But it was/is a multi-year deal.

We are already in the red for 2023 cap space and we need to sign Hock. A couple of possible targets:

Adam Theilen is averaging 49 yards and 0.3 TDs per game. Next year his cap hit is $20 million, the year after $21 million.
Harrison Smith aged overnight and his upcoming cap hits are $19, $19, and $22.

How many years are we going to hear that we lack the personnel for the 3-4? That seems like the new convenient excuse going forward.

But it's true.

I feel like the 3-4 was simply an experiment that wasted a year. IMO the only real analysis that needs to be done regarding moving back to the 4-3 is how Za Smith would work. And maybe whether the twin stubbies Phillips and Tomlinson can be the DTs.

It is true. But it's not an excuse is my point. I totally agree with you. Go back to the 4-3. By the time we get the right personnel for the 3-4 Jefferson could be approaching retirement.

Post #: 3460

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:00:12 AM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19741
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

I don’t get local press coverage. Is anyone asking, directly, “why is this defense so bad?” Or are getting the typical Minnesota nice media?

Post #: 3461

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:02:40 AM

Todd M

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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Heads won't roll but a swift kick in the ass is due.

Just scrap the 3-4 soft shell crap. Get Z and Hunter on the line with their ears pinned back and increase blitzing 15%.

There's no hiding how bad it is... standing Pat would be offensive.

Post #: 3462

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:03:33 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45687
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

The thing about Ed Donatell is that I have never seen anyone so arrogant about having a defense that gets pushed all over the field. He arrogantly proclaims that yards don't beat you. There's lass real-estate to protect in the red zone. He dismisses the folly of constantly putting teams in scoring position. Here is what we know about Ed Donatell's defense:

Despite the presence of two of the best pass rushers in football, the Vikings are unable to make QBs even slightly uncomfortable.

The secondary doesn't communicate. Big plays like the Williams TD happen constantly because two guys cover the wrong route. Thus despite two deep soft coverage receivers get open behind the defense.

Third and long means nothing.

Fourth and long means nothing.

Week after week, incredibly mediocre QB have career days against the Vikings defense.

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Post #: 3463

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:26:21 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12418
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Going back to the offseason, the conversion to the 3-4 was a mess. It lacked the proper personnel, and there were no resources available to help. But it was/is a multi-year deal.

We are already in the red for 2023 cap space and we need to sign Hock. A couple of possible targets:

Adam Theilen is averaging 49 yards and 0.3 TDs per game. Next year his cap hit is $20 million, the year after $21 million.
Harrison Smith aged overnight and his upcoming cap hits are $19, $19, and $22.

Trade Smith for whatever you can get. I think you can get a 5th or 6th rounder.

Cook will be cut or traded. Maybe get a 5th or 6th also.

Thielen is smart. He knows he is on the downside and playing with JJ gives him some opportunities. Huge restructure to stay in his home state. Maybe getting 5M a year at most.

Post #: 3464

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:29:20 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12418
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The thing about Ed Donatell is that I have never seen anyone so arrogant about having a defense that gets pushed all over the field. He arrogantly proclaims that yards don't beat you. There's lass real-estate to protect in the red zone. He dismisses the folly of constantly putting teams in scoring position. Here is what we know about Ed Donatell's defense:

Despite the presence of two of the best pass rushers in football, the Vikings are unable to make QBs even slightly uncomfortable.

The secondary doesn't communicate. Big plays like the Williams TD happen constantly because two guys cover the wrong route. Thus despite two deep soft coverage receivers get open behind the defense.

Third and long means nothing.

Fourth and long means nothing.

Week after week, incredibly mediocre QB have career days against the Vikings defense.

Hunter needs to have his hand on the ground in obvious passing situations. He has more leverage that way. Z can continue to move around and stand up, more natural for him.

Need some blitzes in Hunter and Z's areas. They get doubled pretty easy in Donatell's scheme.

Post #: 3465

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:32:41 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The thing about Ed Donatell is that I have never seen anyone so arrogant about having a defense that gets pushed all over the field. He arrogantly proclaims that yards don't beat you. There's lass real-estate to protect in the red zone. He dismisses the folly of constantly putting teams in scoring position. Here is what we know about Ed Donatell's defense:

Despite the presence of two of the best pass rushers in football, the Vikings are unable to make QBs even slightly uncomfortable.

The secondary doesn't communicate. Big plays like the Williams TD happen constantly because two guys cover the wrong route. Thus despite two deep soft coverage receivers get open behind the defense.

Third and long means nothing.

Fourth and long means nothing.

Week after week, incredibly mediocre QB have career days against the Vikings defense.

Hunter needs to have his hand on the ground in obvious passing situations. He has more leverage that way. Z can continue to move around and stand up, more natural for him.

Need some blitzes in Hunter and Z's areas. They get doubled pretty easy in Donatell's scheme.

Seems very sensible to me. 👍🏼

Post #: 3466

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:35:29 AM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 29251
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Heads won't roll but a swift kick in the ass is due.

Just scrap the 3-4 soft shell crap. Get Z and Hunter on the line with their ears pinned back and increase blitzing 15%.

There's no hiding how bad it is... standing Pat would be offensive.

The problem isn't the 3-4 or 4-3....it is that we have 2 LB that can't cover and we really don't have a ton of speed at DB either.
A soft shell softens the blow but the only LB capable of defending Pollard out of the backfield was the rookie.

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Post #: 3467

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 10:41:09 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12418
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Heads won't roll but a swift kick in the ass is due.

Just scrap the 3-4 soft shell crap. Get Z and Hunter on the line with their ears pinned back and increase blitzing 15%.

There's no hiding how bad it is... standing Pat would be offensive.

The problem isn't the 3-4 or 4-3....it is that we have 2 LB that can't cover and we really don't have a ton of speed at DB either.
A soft shell softens the blow but the only LB capable of defending Pollard out of the backfield was the rookie.

Hicks should come off field in obvious passing situations(although he saved the Jets game).

Post #: 3468

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 11:34:24 AM

marty

Posts: 13305
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Vic Fangio is available immediately for DC.

He is acting as a consultant for Philly, so it would also be a double whammy and weaken Philly a tad.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 3469

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 11:38:27 AM

marty

Posts: 13305
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Did the Ravens change offensive coordinators in December, and then went on to win the Super Bowl that season ?

Know your weaknesses, and address them.

A good defensive scheme can hide a lot of weaknesses. When I think of the Rams defense last year, I think of 3 players: Aaron Donald, Von Miller and Jaylon Ramsey.

So if you have 2 or 3 studs, a good defensive scheme, and an offense that can put on points, you're good to go.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 3470

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 12:26:42 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39807
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Vic Fangio is available immediately for DC.

He is acting as a consultant for Philly, so it would also be a double whammy and weaken Philly a tad.

Why would he leave when they are rolling?

He'd be part of a potential Superbowl winner.

I just don't get why he would leave them, to take over a defense that sucks donkey nuts

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'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored… the first thought forbidden… the first freedom denied – chains us all irrevocably - Jean-Luc Picard when quoting Judge Aaron Satie.

Post #: 3471

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 12:28:23 PM

Trekgeekscott

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From: United Federation of Planets
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Clearly Donatel's defensive scheme is the problem here.

It just looks a lot like a "scared as hell they're gonna have a big play against us" defense.

May as well play prevent all game....

Now that I think about it...that's about what we are doing.

DIAL UP THE HEAT Eddie!!!!

_____________________________

'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored… the first thought forbidden… the first freedom denied – chains us all irrevocably - Jean-Luc Picard when quoting Judge Aaron Satie.

Post #: 3472

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 12:36:42 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 18029
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Heads won't roll but a swift kick in the ass is due.

Just scrap the 3-4 soft shell crap. Get Z and Hunter on the line with their ears pinned back and increase blitzing 15%.

There's no hiding how bad it is... standing Pat would be offensive.

The problem isn't the 3-4 or 4-3....it is that we have 2 LB that can't cover and we really don't have a ton of speed at DB either.
A soft shell softens the blow but the only LB capable of defending Pollard out of the backfield was the rookie.

Both Hicks and Hendricks have been above avg in coverage up until this year.

Donnashell s scheme simply doesn't work. Every defender is on their heels chasing vs attacking. Our LBs are fine it's Donnashell that needs to go.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 3473

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 12:40:50 PM

Lars

Posts: 11428
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Midi-chlorians
Status: offline

My $0.02:

Saw that loss coming a mile away. The Donashell couldn't get a turnover or stop them on third down.

The OL actually held up better than expected.

The 4th and 1 call was poor, as was the fumble play. Giving up the fake punt on 4th and 7! Ugh.

The going for 2 was a total head scratcher, too.

KFC played well. JJ is a beast!!!!!!!!

Head home and take care of the Colts to win the division. The rest is all about getting healthy and seeding.

Beyond this year....yes, Thielen, Smith, Cook? all need to go.

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<this space for rent>

Post #: 3474

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/12/2022 12:57:22 PM

Todd M

Posts: 41626
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Going for 2...

I get it...if you're a good team at scoring in the red zone. I don't think we are.

But think about it. You can kick the Xtra point...hope to score and tie it up and hope OT works out ..or you can try and make it so things are settled in regulation (you winning)...while you have the ball yards away.

It's surely favored statistically.

Post #: 3475