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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 8:39:22 AM

Bill Johanesen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

If you scheme differently, there is the possibility of added pressure, and fewer plays where you're weaknesses are exposed.

Donatell is a lost cause.

Staying with Donatell, we may see a temporary improvement, in response to the awfulness, maybe a few games of good pressure, some turnovers. Then go right back to 400 yards given up, and sucking under Donatell.

Gzuz just go back to fluffing your eyelashes and sticking out a hairy leg at OBJ as he swings by on his signing tour.

At least that had a seedy unrequited love element to it. Annoying as hell but fascinating.

This droning on and on about Donatell ...

Ay caramba!

Fluffing? What about batting? For David Boston he did both.

Post #: 3551

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 8:46:13 AM

Bill Johanesen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I am right about Donatell, and could care less about your personal attacks.

Its a counter-attack.

You've said the same thing a thousand times over and bludgeoned this site.

Get a life.

He's trying to say he's the first to this and that. The FACTS show many people posted they didn't want Donatell, he is a bad hire, etc. right after he was announced as the DC.

Perhaps a special 'Fire Donatell in December' thread can be started, just as one was created - specifically for him - for Bernardo Harris.

Post #: 3552

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 9:10:11 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 6036
Joined: 7/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

If you scheme differently, there is the possibility of added pressure, and fewer plays where you're weaknesses are exposed.

Donatell is a lost cause.

Staying with Donatell, we may see a temporary improvement, in response to the awfulness, maybe a few games of good pressure, some turnovers. Then go right back to 400 yards given up, and sucking under Donatell.

Gzuz just go back to fluffing your eyelashes and sticking out a hairy leg at OBJ as he swings by on his signing tour.

At least that had a seedy unrequited love element to it. Annoying as hell but fascinating.

This droning on and on about Donatell ...

Ay caramba!

Fluffing? What about batting? For David Boston he did both.

Batting of course, I could’nt quite get it.

The hairy leg was more than enough.

Post #: 3553

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:00:44 AM

marty

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I am right about Donatell, Mr. 4th and 26, and don't care about Tom's or Bill's stupidity and personal attacks regarding this.

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Post #: 3554

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:05:50 AM

Ricky J

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[This is the first article I've read re what's being said from the local press re our defense - outside of tweet snippets. I apologize or the redundancy if you're getting the paper dropped on your doorstep.]

Unraveling Vikings defense, worst in the NFL lately, threatening to sink a promising season

The area where Vikings defensive players sit inside the locker room at U.S. Bank Stadium was positively giddy after they delivered a thumping to the Green Bay Packers in the season opener.

The revamped defense swarmed Aaron Rodgers like bees that had their hive swatted with a stick. As first impressions go, that performance hit the bull's eye, creating optimism that maybe this convergence of new coordinator, new scheme, new personnel and return of Danielle Hunter would be the remedy for a unit that sabotaged the 2021 season.

Fast forward 12 weeks. That same defense is broken, searching for solutions that might not be viable and threatening to sabotage another season, albeit under different circumstances.

The pass rush has vanished. The secondary is getting torched routinely sitting back in soft zone coverage. The defense is hemorrhaging yards and points by such an alarming degree that head coach Kevin O'Connell managed last week's loss at Detroit as if he has little faith in that side of the ball.

Veteran coordinator Ed Donatell has managed to do the unthinkable: Take a bad defense and fail to improve it despite a concerted effort by the organization to upgrade the talent last offseason.

Donatell's 'D' has no identity or calling card, other than to hope that takeaways save their bacon — not a sustainable strategy.

A season that has surprised even the most optimistic believers has no chance of extending deep into the playoffs with a defense playing this poorly. Anyone who spent time at the team's facility this week could feel the tension.

The Vikings have fielded the NFL's worst defense the past month, and O'Connell was unusually forceful in tone regarding areas he wants addressed. His response about not making changes to his defensive staff or play-calling responsibilities "as of right now" raised eyebrows for its vagueness.

The Vikings have a big problem. But how do they fix it? Or better yet, are they capable of fixing it with only four games remaining before the playoffs?

Donatell's scheme is getting roasted in public criticism, but problems go deeper than just one thing. I've wrestled with this question: is the defensive scheme more to blame, or talent deficiencies in personnel?

Defensive schemes such as the Vikings' 3-4 defense (three down linemen, four linebackers) have zero chance of being successful when there's both an ineffective pass rush and pass coverage that gives receivers ample space to operate.

The time-honored football credo is that rush and coverage work hand in hand. The Vikings are doing neither well.

Asked if the problems stem more from execution or scheme, Donatell said, "I think it's really more execution."

Ownership of the mess falls on his shoulders, though. His defense has become strikingly predictable in its approach and slow to adjust.

Donatell prefers to create quarterback pressure without having to blitz, but when that's not happening, a new strategy and approach are necessary. He noted that he's called a few more blitzes in recent games but added: "We like our four-man rush, and they have been so close so many times."

Close?

There is no middle ground here. A pass rush either disrupts a quarterback, or it doesn't. The Vikings rank 22nd in the league in sacks per pass attempt and 24th in pressures.

Quarterbacks are getting too much time to find receivers, which is being aided by soft coverage in the secondary. Donatell acknowledged that he wants his defensive backs to play tighter in coverage, but then offered this contradiction: "Our players are doing what they're coached to do."

If the coaching staff is worried that more blitzes and a more aggressive approach will leave the defense vulnerable to explosive plays, guess what? That's already a problem.

Donatell noted that it's too late in the season for "drastic" changes. Perhaps, but drastic improvement from the defense is required for the Vikings to be viewed as a credible playoff team.

"I can't guarantee it in five days, six days, seven days, but eventually, we'll be there," Donatell said. "Because we know what we're doing and how to do it."

Now would be a good time to provide some evidence.

Chip Scoggins is a sports columnist and enterprise writer for the Star Tribune.

Post #: 3555

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:06:26 AM

marty

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I don't care about who said it first, ego doesn't matter. Even if it's not true, give the credit to Bill, he needs his ego lifted.

The only thing that matters is that Mr. 4th and 26 is fired as quickly as possible.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:50:43 AM

Phil Riewer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I don't care about who said it first, ego doesn't matter. Even if it's not true, give the credit to Bill, he needs his ego lifted.

The only thing that matters is that Mr. 4th and 26 is fired as quickly as possible.

Marty he has previous D Cord in Manusky and Pettine helping him out. It is a problem with personel for a 4-3, 3-4, or a 5-2.

2003 GB Defense---One Pro Bowler--KGB
2002 GB Defense---One Pro Bolwer---Darren Sharper

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 12/16/2022 10:55:07 AM >

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Post #: 3557

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:57:14 AM

marty

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I suppose it could be argued that the Packers were 'close' to getting to McNabb when he completed the 4th and 26 in a playoff game.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 10:57:35 AM

Phil Riewer

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2019 MN Defense 4 Pro Bowlers
2020 MN Defense 0 Pro Bowlers
2021 MN Defense 1 Pro Bowler---Harry

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Post #: 3559

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:00:01 AM

marty

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Phil

So what you're saying, a switch to Pettine as DC might get a little bump for a short period of time, then back to same ole ?

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:01:40 AM

marty

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Donatell has been bailed out by Z playing well early on, then PP putting in tons of extra film study, and Smith for some plays.

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Post #: 3561

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:09:39 AM

marty

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The Rams basically had 3 studs on defense last year: Donald, Miller and Ramsey. Had Donatell been their defensive coordinator, they probably wouldn't have made the playoffs, and people would have been saying it looks like Donald and Miller have lost a step.

The Vikings have 5 good players in Zed, Hunter, Kendricks, Peterson and Smith. They all look worse because of Donatell.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:12:47 AM

marty

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The defense may end up looking better because they get Indy and the Giants at home, then a Packers' offense that has had a struggling season, and then Chicago, who knows who their QB will be.

The Vikings may not play a good offense until their playoff game, maybe not even until their 2nd playoff game.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:24:39 AM

ronhextall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The defense may end up looking better because they get Indy and the Giants at home, then a Packers' offense that has had a struggling season, and then Chicago, who knows who their QB will be.

The Vikings may not play a good offense until their playoff game, maybe not even until their 2nd playoff game.

The defense got lit up by the Pats and Jets and they are nothing special.

Vikings should win Saturday but I bet Ryan has an excellent day.

I honestly think Donatell will get fired after the game if the Vikings lose via getting lit up by team coach by a recent high school coach. Social media will explode.

Post #: 3564

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 11:59:19 AM

Bill Jandro

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If the coaching staff is worried that more blitzes and a more aggressive approach will leave the defense vulnerable to explosive plays, guess what? That's already a problem.

This

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 12:12:10 PM

David Levine

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I can't find the numbers now, but didn't Goff absolutely destroy us when we brought extra pressure?

This defense is so bad it doesn't even matter if we play soft or blitz. We're either going to let teams methodically work their way down the field or do it in big chunks.

Post #: 3566

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 12:28:00 PM

Arlowe84

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Joined: 9/30/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I can't find the numbers now, but didn't Goff absolutely destroy us when we brought extra pressure?

This defense is so bad it doesn't even matter if we play soft or blitz. We're either going to let teams methodically work their way down the field or do it in big chunks.

I believe I read, they actually blitzed a season high in terms of % of snaps. Think it was like 31.7%, but not sure where that ranks in terms of league average. I'm not sure we have great blitzers.

I know everyone is like the scheme sucks, but the reality is we haven't had an impact player drafted on defense since the Kendricks. That was awhile go, we really haven't added any young studs on defense since then. It's been disappointments and role players since then. The best players on this D are virtually all brought in from eleswhere.

Sure Spielman got us Jefferson, but he also miserably missed on the defensive side for years now. Part of that is because it took him so long to fix the dang offensive line

Was hoping Kwesi would knock it out of the park last year, but not the case so far.

< Message edited by Arlowe84 -- 12/16/2022 12:29:02 PM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 2:22:15 PM

Tom Sykes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I can't find the numbers now, but didn't Goff absolutely destroy us when we brought extra pressure?

This defense is so bad it doesn't even matter if we play soft or blitz. We're either going to let teams methodically work their way down the field or do it in big chunks.

I believe I read, they actually blitzed a season high in terms of % of snaps. Think it was like 31.7%, but not sure where that ranks in terms of league average. I'm not sure we have great blitzers.

I know everyone is like the scheme sucks, but the reality is we haven't had an impact player drafted on defense since the Kendricks. That was awhile go, we really haven't added any young studs on defense since then. It's been disappointments and role players since then. The best players on this D are virtually all brought in from eleswhere.

Sure Spielman got us Jefferson, but he also miserably missed on the defensive side for years now. Part of that is because it took him so long to fix the dang offensive line

Was hoping Kwesi would knock it out of the park last year, but not the case so far.

Its gotta be a combination of scheme and personnel. I don't think the coaching has squeezed much improvement out of the players but we did little personnel-wise to overhaul a bad defense this past off-season. We just didn't have the resources.

"Team Defense' rankings are no better than PFF rankings of OL ...

but as a general example, pro-football-reference.com has our defense ranked #32 in 2013 then jump to #11 in Zim's first year. Followed by 5 years of top ten D:

The 2015 starters:
Robison, Floyd, Joseph, Griffen with backups Hunter / Tom Johnson / Stephen
Greenway, Kendricks, Barr with backups Cole / Robinson/ Hodges
Rhodes, Robinson with backups Newman / Munnerlyn / Sherels
Smith, Blanton with backups Sendejo / Exum

2015 – #5
2016 – #6
2017 – #1
2018 – #9
2019 – #5

Then the downward slide from 2019-2020

The 2019 starters (and depth):
Hunter, Joseph, Stephen, Griffen with backups Odenigbo / Weatherly
Barr, Kendricks with backups Gedeon / Wilson
Rhodes, Waynes with backups Alexander / Hughes / Fields
Harris, Smith with backups Kearse / Epps.

To the 2020 starters (not just a drop-off in starting talent but this is where our depth got gutted as well)
Odenigbo, Holmes, Stephen, Ngakoue (6 games) / Wonnum / Willekes
Kendricks, Wilson, Gedeon
Dantzler, Gladney, Hughes / Hill
Harris, Smith

There was also a whole lotta covid issues / players missing games / practice because of protocols and 'big' free agent opt-out Pierce

2020 – #29
2021 – #24
2022 – #24 (so far)

To the 2022 starters:
Tomlinson, Phillips, Blacklock (?)
Smith, Hunter
Kendricks, Hicks
Peterson, Dantzler
Smith, Bynum

A ton of work to do this offseason. With very little resources as we stand.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 12/16/2022 2:23:56 PM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 3:14:03 PM

Phil Riewer

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From: MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The Rams basically had 3 studs on defense last year: Donald, Miller and Ramsey. Had Donatell been their defensive coordinator, they probably wouldn't have made the playoffs, and people would have been saying it looks like Donald and Miller have lost a step.

The Vikings have 5 good players in Zed, Hunter, Kendricks, Peterson and Smith. They all look worse because of Donatell.

Rams had as many good players as we did plus the studs. The defense needs to be gutted at LB and D Backfield. Mostly Harry Smith and Kendrick’s. You can’t pay 10-20 million for good. That check is for great.

Zed made 3 million base this year and he is doing more than Hunter.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 12/16/2022 3:15:15 PM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2022 3:26:49 PM

Bill Jandro

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I believe I read, they actually blitzed a season high in terms of % of snaps. Think it was like 31.7%, but not sure where that ranks in terms of league average. I'm not sure we have great blitzers.

I couldn't find # of pressures per game stat. But I think we only pressured Goff 3 times all game. Might have been one hit. That is flat out not getting it done. Our pass rushers were not winning their one on one battles and if we did blitz a lot it wasn't effective nor noticeable.

Blitzes need to be disguised and stunts need to be implemented. Whatever were doing it is completely ineffective.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/17/2022 3:51:22 AM

Bill Johanesen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I suppose it could be argued that the Packers were 'close' to getting to McNabb when he completed the 4th and 26 in a playoff game.

Oh no, he was the coordinator of your beloved packers and let that happen?!

You even bring up specific plays! LMAO!

Post #: 3571

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/17/2022 3:57:27 AM

Bill Johanesen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I believe I read, they actually blitzed a season high in terms of % of snaps. Think it was like 31.7%, but not sure where that ranks in terms of league average. I'm not sure we have great blitzers.

I couldn't find # of pressures per game stat. But I think we only pressured Goff 3 times all game. Might have been one hit. That is flat out not getting it done. Our pass rushers were not winning their one on one battles and if we did blitz a lot it wasn't effective nor noticeable.

Blitzes need to be disguised and stunts need to be implemented. Whatever were doing it is completely ineffective.

If the pass rushers can't win one on one, there are personnel issues with the pass rushers.

Post #: 3572

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/17/2022 4:14:37 AM

Bill Johanesen

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I don't care if Buddy Ryan is reincarnated, getting the right personnel on defense, be it a 3-4 or 4-3, will take a couple of offseasons minimum before there is a fair chance for it to be good. And that's based on draftees actually contributing!

Home run drafts are essential, as we will be skipping free agency this offseason. Kwesi' first draft so far looks like a pop-up to shallow right that fortunately fell foul. Some kid caught the ball and he's the only person who is excited.

Post #: 3573

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/17/2022 9:22:22 AM

marty

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Phil

If any of these 5 Vikings were on the 49ers defense, they would be studs: Zed, Hunter, Kendricks Peterson and Smith. They would look better than they do in Minnesota, better situations, better schemes.

Take any stud off of the 49ers, and they would drop a notch if they were playing in Minnesota under Donatell.

Put Donatell in charge of the 49ers defense, and it would likely become pedestrian.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/17/2022 9:24:12 AM

marty

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Yes, Bill.

Apparently, you and some others, aren't aware Donatell was fired in Green Bay after his defense gave up a 4th and 26 in a playoff game, when he rushed just 3 pass rushers.

Donatell isn't aggressive, and now he is older.

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Post #: 3575