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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:28:51 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45027
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB.

At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it.

This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open.

Dilly Dilly

There are aging overpriced vets on the offense as well. Do see Thielen and Cook performing better or even as good next year?

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Post #: 5101

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:29:42 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Talk about resigning Bradbury...I would say hell no to that.

Maybe for about 4M per and he has to compete for the job with someone besides camp fodder.

I say no. Even under those terms he winds up being another Dakota Dozier, who makes his way onto the field.

Maybe Jensen is a cap casualty in TB. Brady probably leaves and they blow things up.

Post #: 5102

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:30:05 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB.

At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it.

This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open.

Dilly Dilly

There are aging overpriced vets on the offense as well. Do see Thielen and Cook performing better or even as good next year?

Gone

Post #: 5103

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:34:28 PM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB.

At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it.

This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open.

Dilly Dilly

There are aging overpriced vets on the offense as well. Do see Thielen and Cook performing better or even as good next year?

Nope. Thielen is toast and gave the team next to nothing this year, and Cook has clearly lost a step - yet the Vikings were still a top 10 scoring offense. Swap Mattison for Cook, and pretty much anybody for Thielen next year and there's no drop-off plus big cap savings.

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If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 5104

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:52:02 PM 1 votes

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

A competitive rebuild might squeak into a playoff seed again, but won't contend for a SB.

At some point we have to bottom out and make a real run at it.

This is how Kwesi pulls off the "competitive rebuild". He'll keep the offense in tact and jettison the aging, overpriced vets on defense. Ideally replacing them with younger, more athletic players. The defense could be worse, and drop from 31st in the league to 32nd, and still be competitive if the offense carries the team. Hopefully, some of the young guys turn out to be pretty good players. Then in 2024 we have an excellent offense, a defense that isn't burdened by overpriced vets, and $120 million in cap space to work with. Superbowl window wide open.

Dilly Dilly

There are aging overpriced vets on the offense as well. Do see Thielen and Cook performing better or even as good next year?

Nope. Thielen is toast and gave the team next to nothing this year, and Cook has clearly lost a step - yet the Vikings were still a top 10 scoring offense. Swap Mattison for Cook, and pretty much anybody for Thielen next year and there's no drop-off plus big cap savings.

Cook hasn't lost a step...he just isn't as physical (his shoulder may be shot).

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Post #: 5105

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 3:57:10 PM

Mark Anderson

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Joined: 9/1/2007
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I'm hearing about all these tough decisions we have to make. Maybe from a sentimental outlook.

But, football skills and cap wise, it looks pretty simple.

Post #: 5106

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:01:43 PM

Phil Riewer

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Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

I'm hearing about all these tough decisions we have to make. Maybe from a sentimental outlook.

But, football skills and cap wise, it looks pretty simple.

Spielman was very sentimental....even when it came to AP and Jared and they should have cut them a year earlier. He and Zimmer were like TR on their guys even when they couldn't play at a high level any more.

We will see how sentimental KOC and Kwesi are; I am thinking not as much.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 1/17/2023 4:03:30 PM >

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Post #: 5107

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:09:44 PM

marty

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Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Nobody thought Case Keenum was going to be any good, and he had the best season a quarterback has had for the Vikings in quite some time. I didn't see it coming. You didn't see it coming. Nobody saw it coming..

I saw it coming.

But I also saw Nick Foles Mullens taking over in a playoff game for an injured Kirk, and leading the Vikes to a Super Bowl win.

The things I see don't always come to fruition.

I saw the Indy comeback coming, but was only believing it, if the Vikings got within 2 TDs to start the 4th quarter.

But I also saw many Vikings' 4th quarter comebacks happening in the early 90s, but very few of them came to fruition.

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Post #: 5108

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:33:35 PM

drviking

Posts: 36160
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Dakota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Def. Coordinator available next year: Vic Fangio.

There are probably others, many that can be better for a playoff run than Zimmer or Donatell.

This was the worst defense I've ever seen in the history of this franchise. You could bring in a fry cook from McDonalds and the worst you could do is drop one spot.

exactly why i would invest my capital in offense to finish building that, and hope we get lucky on a QBOTF

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Post #: 5109

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:40:47 PM

drviking

Posts: 36160
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Dakota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

I'm hearing about all these tough decisions we have to make. Maybe from a sentimental outlook.

But, football skills and cap wise, it looks pretty simple.

Spielman was very sentimental....even when it came to AP and Jared and they should have cut them a year earlier. He and Zimmer were like TR on their guys even when they couldn't play at a high level any more.

We will see how sentimental KOC and Kwesi are; I am thinking not as much.

lots of examples greenway robison etc

brutal business

but you HAVE to move early instead of late

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Post #: 5110

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:43:15 PM

drviking

Posts: 36160
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Dakota
Status: offline

i hated the theilen and harrison restructure

i didnt like but understood cousins

to me most of the steps are obvious, except QB...i can understand people wanting to extend Cousins a couple more years....personally i do not

Contract says he is here this year, so i guess that situation is obvious too

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Post #: 5111

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 4:59:30 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

i hated the theilen and harrison restructure

i didnt like but understood cousins

to me most of the steps are obvious, except QB...i can understand people wanting to extend Cousins a couple more years....personally i do not

Contract says he is here this year, so i guess that situation is obvious too

When it is guys on cheaper contracts it makes sense to hold the fort but not on max contracts. Warren from Daily Norseman has us resigning Bradbury and Kirk and trying to get Thielen, Hicks, Cook, Etc. at just above their dead cap number.....I don't think/feel that is a Kwesi SOP for Bradbury and Kirk but we will see.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 1/17/2023 5:01:12 PM >

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Post #: 5112

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 5:16:09 PM

beo

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I was pretty depressed when we originally extended Kirk... that being said...

Anyone who thinks we are jettisoning Kirk after at 13 win season WITH A BOTTOM RATED DEFENSE...

I just can't see it happening.

I will be DELIGHTED if they don't extend him again.
But I'm bracing for a possible extension.

My ideal scenario (accepting that Kirk isn't going anywhere for 2023) is you give Kirk another year to progress. (and when he doesn't you move on... OR he pulls a Gannon/Brad Johnson and yippee)

Kirk really did play well this year... I just don't enjoy watching him play... and I think he is the close but no cigar forever type QB.

Swallow the pill and cut all the old guys.
There is going to be arguments that you might be able to get them to come back on the cheap(close to dead cap number)... but that is negative... not a positive...

They take time away from finding playmakers.
We should have been mixing in young guys more this season.

< Message edited by beo -- 1/17/2023 5:36:22 PM >

Post #: 5113

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 5:31:44 PM

Brad H

Posts: 22989
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

My plan for next season:

1) Find a new place for Kirk to call home that he can live with (trade)

2) if he doesn't like that idea, tell him he will be on the bench next season is he doesn't restructure down while the organization is attempting to move in a new direction (no new years on his contract). It would be in his best interest if he wants to make more money playing football past 2023.

3) Do everything you can to get the #1 pick in 2024 and draft Caleb Williams (0-17 is fine with me). Sign and play the Gopher QB for all I care.

I am damned tired of the Packers having Hall of Fame quarterbacks while the Vikings have average guys. Been watching it for about 30 straight years. Think about it. For the past 30 years the Packers have had a better quarterback than the Vikings have ever had.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/17/2023 5:54:55 PM >

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Post #: 5114

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 7:45:39 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28639
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

I'm hearing about all these tough decisions we have to make. Maybe from a sentimental outlook.

But, football skills and cap wise, it looks pretty simple.

Spielman was very sentimental....even when it came to AP and Jared and they should have cut them a year earlier. He and Zimmer were like TR on their guys even when they couldn't play at a high level any more.

We will see how sentimental KOC and Kwesi are; I am thinking not as much.

lots of examples greenway robison etc

brutal business

but you HAVE to move early instead of late

Greenway and Robison have no reason to feel things were brutal. They were kept on well past their shelf life.

Post #: 5115

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 8:33:20 PM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 14027
Status: offline

The same can damn sure be said about Thielen, Harrison Smith, Dalvin Cook, Bynum, fn Kirk Cousins…

I will never forget his “ examples” of leadership…

Either throwing it into the stand on fourth and game on the line…or.. worse, not even trying to throw PAST the sticks…especially with the entire playoff season on the FN line.

Step up and make a FN throw you candy ass Jesus loving cupcake frosted in snowflakes!!

Not calling a fn time out when the playcall is a pitch out to JJ and the Throwback zero yard pass to his fat dumb ass on 3rd and 1..

The fn list of idiotic robot “ run what’s called” is endless..KFC is worse than the chicken he is named after..

KC and Donatello are dead to me.

Thielen is dead to me , Hsmith is dead to me, Dcook is dead to me, Dhunter’s career is dying in a 3-4 and if they continue to play a three four with Hunter covering tight ends or running back.. he is dead to me… PPeterson is expired, Kendrick’s is expired, I can’t even name a defensive player that played with a fraction of the guts displayed buy the 5”8 Shelley.

Our punter was good..

Our kicker is a fn loser who can’t make extra points, who can kick a 61 yard game winner, but can NOT consistently kick touchbacks with a seven yard run up on a kick off from the 35… do the math.. it’s idiotic.

WTF?

Our offensive line has been fn garbage since Birk, McKinmy and Hutchison were together.

Did the death of Kory Stringer curse this franchise forever?

Rant over..

I’m wasting electrons..

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 1/17/2023 8:40:25 PM >

_____________________________

**** you all.

Post #: 5116

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/17/2023 9:59:16 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

.
.
Impending free agents….

Dalvin Tomlinson- DL

Patrick Peterson- CB

Garrett Bradbury - C

Greg Joseph - K

Nick Mullens - QB

Chandon Sullivan - CB

Jonathon Bullard - DL

Olabisi Johnson - WR

Kris Boyd - CB

Oli Udoh - T

Kenny Willekes - DL

Blake Brandel - T

Ben Ellefson - TE

Khyiris Tonga- DL

Alexander Mattison - RB

Austin Scholttmann - C

Duke Shelley - CB

Andrew DePaola - LS

Greg Mancz - C

Irv Smith Jr. - TE

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the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 5117

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 8:15:34 AM

eagleflorida

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Joined: 12/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham and save about $57M. Find a trade for Cousins after June 1 and save another $30M. If we are going to stick with a 3/4, they might as well trade Hunter and trade of cut Phillips. If they go back to 4/3 then move Zeke.

Nice wrapup Sweens.

To sum it all up, the 2022 Vikings were a playoff team, but not a very good one. We all know it & saw it.

I've been a fan since 1961 through all the many trials & tribulations. You all have covered things quite well the past couple days here. My hopes for a Super Bowl victory in my lifetime are nearly gone. My wish is that all you Vikestalk members don't reach my stage of life with such feelings as mine. Stay positive and be critical when appropriate. Changes will be coming no doubt. Let's hope they work for the positive outcome for the team.

Post #: 5118

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 9:34:42 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22989
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

According to ESPN, our rookie class was ranked #25 by ESPN. First strike against the new regime.

Who do we pick at #24?

Some Options:

Brian Branch, CB, Alabama
Cam Smith, CB, South Carolina
Kelee Ringo, CB, Georgia
Antonio Johnson, S, Texas A&M
O'Cyrus Torrence, OL, Florida
Devon Witherspoon, CB, Illinois
Christian Gonzalez, CB, Oregon State
Joey Porter, CB, Penn State
Clark Phillips, CB, Utah
Chris Smith, S, Georgia
Jordan Battle, S, Alabama

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/18/2023 9:43:55 AM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 9:47:20 AM

David F.

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Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5120

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 9:50:39 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22989
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed.

Are you saying it is going to take three years to rebuild our defense?

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Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 5121

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 9:54:25 AM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
My plan for next season:
1) Find a new place for Kirk to call home that he can live with (trade)
2) if he doesn't like that idea, tell him he will be on the bench next season is he doesn't restructure down while the organization is attempting to move in a new direction (no new years on his contract). It would be in his best interest if he wants to make more money playing football past 2023.
3) Do everything you can to get the #1 pick in 2024 and draft Caleb Williams (0-17 is fine with me). Sign and play the Gopher QB for all I care.
I am damned tired of the Packers having Hall of Fame quarterbacks while the Vikings have average guys. Been watching it for about 30 straight years. Think about it. For the past 30 years the Packers have had a better quarterback than the Vikings have ever had.

Which Sabotage plan is this now? 10.0?

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Post #: 5122

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 10:00:32 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22989
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
My plan for next season:
1) Find a new place for Kirk to call home that he can live with (trade)
2) if he doesn't like that idea, tell him he will be on the bench next season is he doesn't restructure down while the organization is attempting to move in a new direction (no new years on his contract). It would be in his best interest if he wants to make more money playing football past 2023.
3) Do everything you can to get the #1 pick in 2024 and draft Caleb Williams (0-17 is fine with me). Sign and play the Gopher QB for all I care.
I am damned tired of the Packers having Hall of Fame quarterbacks while the Vikings have average guys. Been watching it for about 30 straight years. Think about it. For the past 30 years the Packers have had a better quarterback than the Vikings have ever had.

Which Sabotage plan is this now? 10.0?

Unfortunately, with our current state, things are going to have to get worse before they get better. You can call it sabotage all you want, but it seems like the best viable course to getting back on track and building a perennial contender.

In order to win in the NFL, you have to have a great quarterback. Caleb Williams is a sensational talent.

The organization needs to get back making sound decisions after a decade of abuse. Cleaning out the cabinets of old roaches and starting over should be goal #1.

Tell Kirk Cousins he has one more year to prove himself to the other 31 teams in the NFL if he takes a pay cut. That, or find him a new home he can live with. If he doesn't, be prepared to bench him and start fresh. At some point you need to turn the page and quit playing checkers when the agents are playing chess.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/18/2023 10:06:58 AM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 10:09:09 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28639
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H
My plan for next season:
1) Find a new place for Kirk to call home that he can live with (trade)
2) if he doesn't like that idea, tell him he will be on the bench next season is he doesn't restructure down while the organization is attempting to move in a new direction (no new years on his contract). It would be in his best interest if he wants to make more money playing football past 2023.
3) Do everything you can to get the #1 pick in 2024 and draft Caleb Williams (0-17 is fine with me). Sign and play the Gopher QB for all I care.
I am damned tired of the Packers having Hall of Fame quarterbacks while the Vikings have average guys. Been watching it for about 30 straight years. Think about it. For the past 30 years the Packers have had a better quarterback than the Vikings have ever had.

Which Sabotage plan is this now? 10.0?

Unfortunately, with our current state, things are going to have to get worse before they get better. You can call it sabotage all you want, but it seems like the best viable course to getting back on track and building a perennial contender.

In order to win in the NFL, you have to have a great quarterback. Caleb Williams is a sensational talent.

The organization needs to get back making sound decisions after a decade of abuse. Cleaning out the cabinets of old roaches and starting over should be goal #1.

Agree. Robert Cray's song "The Forecast Calls For Pain" comes to mind.

Sabotage? LMAO. Anyone who saddles up to Kwesi thinking we will glide through all this is sadly mistaken.

Post #: 5124

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 10:18:49 AM

David F.

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Joined: 12/31/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Draft class rankings are irrelevant until after three years have passed.

Are you saying it is going to take three years to rebuild our defense?

No I'm saying it takes three years to evaluate a draft.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5125