quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

To agree with a point that Brad H has made many times, I good defense in the current NFL starts with a strong secondary and specifically at least on stud cornerback. The Vikings have swung and missed on CBs in the past with many early draft round busts. The new front office needs to upgrade the secondary in particular. Just think what Hunter and Smith could do if they had one more second to get to the quarterback.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

To agree with a point that Brad H has made many times, I good defense in the current NFL starts with a strong secondary and specifically at least on stud cornerback. The Vikings have swung and missed on CBs in the past with many early draft round busts. The new front office needs to upgrade the secondary in particular. Just think what Hunter and Smith could do if they had one more second to get to the quarterback.

Conversely, Imaging how much better our coverage could be if Hunter and Smith could get the QB one second quicker....

It really isn't an "either or"

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The Vikings are actually set up to allow Kwesi to continue his "competitive rebuild" while remaining competitive next year.

Barring a weird string of good fortune with future acquisitions, there is no way we are competitive next year. And "remaining competitive" is a bit misleading because of all the well-mentioned lucky things that happened this year.

"Competitive rebuild" is some BS term Zygi may have conjured up. Especially when the D needs an outright rebuild with, yet again, less than average draft assets and starting with a cap deficit.

Kwesi needs to put on his big boy pants and pull off the band-aids, pay the piper, whatever. If he is in fact doing Wilf's bidding, he should quit his job.

Most of the suggestions on here have been pulling off the band aids.

Cook, Harry, Kendricks, Z, Thielen, Hicks, Ham, Reed are on the chopping block. Offense basically stays in tact.

Spend 25-30M on some new defenders and maybe we can get 10-11 wins next year.

All of it for naught if we don't dive hard into QBOTF pool.

Exactly. The Vikings were the 7th ranked scoring offense. No reason to think they can't be just as good next year. Even a slight improvement on defense and the team will be competitive.

Probably.

Cook is not who he once was, but if he and Mattison are gone, we're counting on totally unproven kids at RB.

I think KJ can step into the #2 role, but we need to see how he handles it full-time. Can Nailor be a #3?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The Vikings are actually set up to allow Kwesi to continue his "competitive rebuild" while remaining competitive next year.

Barring a weird string of good fortune with future acquisitions, there is no way we are competitive next year. And "remaining competitive" is a bit misleading because of all the well-mentioned lucky things that happened this year.

"Competitive rebuild" is some BS term Zygi may have conjured up. Especially when the D needs an outright rebuild with, yet again, less than average draft assets and starting with a cap deficit.

Kwesi needs to put on his big boy pants and pull off the band-aids, pay the piper, whatever. If he is in fact doing Wilf's bidding, he should quit his job.

Most of the suggestions on here have been pulling off the band aids.

Cook, Harry, Kendricks, Z, Thielen, Hicks, Ham, Reed are on the chopping block. Offense basically stays in tact.

Spend 25-30M on some new defenders and maybe we can get 10-11 wins next year.

All of it for naught if we don't dive hard into QBOTF pool.

Exactly. The Vikings were the 7th ranked scoring offense. No reason to think they can't be just as good next year. Even a slight improvement on defense and the team will be competitive.

Probably.

Cook is not who he once was, but if he and Mattison are gone, we're counting on totally unproven kids at RB.

I think KJ can step into the #2 role, but we need to see how he handles it full-time. Can Nailor be a #3?

lots of teams do fine with young RBs, not worried


would rather focus on OL, WR, QBOTF

a legit/good WR2 would do more to open the offense, than a step down from this year's Cook to a servicable RB

IMO

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

Who is any good on defense now?

Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too).

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The Vikings are actually set up to allow Kwesi to continue his "competitive rebuild" while remaining competitive next year.

Barring a weird string of good fortune with future acquisitions, there is no way we are competitive next year. And "remaining competitive" is a bit misleading because of all the well-mentioned lucky things that happened this year.

"Competitive rebuild" is some BS term Zygi may have conjured up. Especially when the D needs an outright rebuild with, yet again, less than average draft assets and starting with a cap deficit.

Kwesi needs to put on his big boy pants and pull off the band-aids, pay the piper, whatever. If he is in fact doing Wilf's bidding, he should quit his job.

Most of the suggestions on here have been pulling off the band aids.

Cook, Harry, Kendricks, Z, Thielen, Hicks, Ham, Reed are on the chopping block. Offense basically stays in tact.

Spend 25-30M on some new defenders and maybe we can get 10-11 wins next year.

All of it for naught if we don't dive hard into QBOTF pool.

Exactly. The Vikings were the 7th ranked scoring offense. No reason to think they can't be just as good next year. Even a slight improvement on defense and the team will be competitive.

Probably.

Cook is not who he once was, but if he and Mattison are gone, we're counting on totally unproven kids at RB.

I think KJ can step into the #2 role, but we need to see how he handles it full-time. Can Nailor be a #3?

lots of teams do fine with young RBs, not worried


would rather focus on OL, WR, QBOTF

a legit/good WR2 would do more to open the offense, than a step down from this year's Cook to a servicable RB

IMO

You're putting words in my mouth.

All I'm saying is its entirely possible we take a step back on offense this year as we really don't have the funds to go WR or OLine shopping. And there is no guarantee that one of the unproven RBs or even KJ can step up as much as we need.

Cook and Thielen really need to go, and I'm excited about the potential of a bigger role for KJ. And I think Chandler is really intriguing - but he has 6 carries for 20 yards for his career.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

Who is any good on defense now?

Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too).

That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

Who is any good on defense now?

Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too).

That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense?

S Cine and Bynum Metullus backup
CB Evans and Booth (Dantzler, Boyd, Shelley)
LB Dye LB Asamoah
DL Phillips Tonga Bullard and Lynch Otomewo
OLB Vilain/Wonnum Jones

It isn't as bare as you are suggesting and it isn't much worse than the starters of 2022 before the draft, FA, and UDFA periods

They have added CB and LB to future contracts already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

Who is any good on defense now?

Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too).

That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense?

S Cine and Bynum Metullus backup
CB Evans and Booth (Dantzler, Boyd, Shelley)
LB Dye LB Asamoah
DL Phillips Tonga Bullard and Lynch Otomewo
OLB Vilain/Wonnum Jones

It isn't as bare as you are suggesting and it isn't much worse than the starters of 2022 before the draft, FA, and UDFA periods

They have added CB and LB to future contracts already.

That's even uglier than what I was picturing...

Just because you like guys or know their names makes them starters?

How many of those guys have an actual history of playing well as starters?

On paper its significantly worse than 2022...

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Every year that the Vikings hovered just either side of .500, there seemed to be those who would say that the Vikings were just handful of plays away from being a playoff team. This year the Vikings won 13 games and you could make the argument that the Vikings were several key plays away from being a 3 win team. I was at the Patriots game and in that one alone, the Vikings had great fortune. The referees missed a huge hold on Nwangwu's kick return for a TD. Ham had his arms around the man he was blocking and both hands were full of jersey. Nwangwu ran right past him as he was doing it. How the refs missed that one, I will never know. After that the Pats helped the Vikes game winning drive with two personal foul penalties.

Why bring this up? You can't look to next year and say if they just make just an incremental improvement in certain areas, they will x amount of games and make the playoffs again. The Vikings could have an incrementally better team on paper next year and come away with half as many wins. They have to look at this in terms of what are the components of a real contender and how do we put that together. This defense is old, slow as molasses in January and has the wrong players for the scheme. The offense featured guys like Cook and Thielen who are visibly losing steps. The line continues to be held together with two good blockers, bailing wire and chewing gum.

The long and short of it is that there are too many holes to fill in one off season. They need to start the process of a full rebuild now. Cut Thielen, Smith, Cook, Kendricks, Hicks, Ham and save about $57M. Find a trade for Cousins after June 1 and save another $30M. If we are going to stick with a 3/4, they might as well trade Hunter and trade of cut Phillips. If they go back to 4/3 then move Zeke.

+1 (I am more on the full rebuild on the def side as many of the cuts are on that side of the ball)

May have to include not resigning Dalvin Tomlinson plus cutting/trading Hunter and ZED.....

So who is left on defense?

Who is any good on defense now?

Asamoah, Evans, Cine, Booth, Bynum, Phillips, Jones, Lynch, Tonga, Metullus, Blacklock, Boyd, Bullard, Dye, Otomewo, Vilain, Wonnum, and Dantzler (may be gone too).

That's my point. How far does all this money go when you need 6 or 8 starters on defense?

S Cine and Bynum Metullus backup
CB Evans and Booth (Dantzler, Boyd, Shelley)
LB Dye LB Asamoah
DL Phillips Tonga Bullard and Lynch Otomewo
OLB Vilain/Wonnum Jones

It isn't as bare as you are suggesting and it isn't much worse than the starters of 2022 before the draft, FA, and UDFA periods

They have added CB and LB to future contracts already.

That's even uglier than what I was picturing...

Just because you like guys or know their names makes them starters?

How many of those guys have an actual history of playing well as starters?

On paper its significantly worse than 2022...

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The Vikings are actually set up to allow Kwesi to continue his "competitive rebuild" while remaining competitive next year.

Barring a weird string of good fortune with future acquisitions, there is no way we are competitive next year. And "remaining competitive" is a bit misleading because of all the well-mentioned lucky things that happened this year.

"Competitive rebuild" is some BS term Zygi may have conjured up. Especially when the D needs an outright rebuild with, yet again, less than average draft assets and starting with a cap deficit.

Kwesi needs to put on his big boy pants and pull off the band-aids, pay the piper, whatever. If he is in fact doing Wilf's bidding, he should quit his job.

Most of the suggestions on here have been pulling off the band aids.

Cook, Harry, Kendricks, Z, Thielen, Hicks, Ham, Reed are on the chopping block. Offense basically stays in tact.

Spend 25-30M on some new defenders and maybe we can get 10-11 wins next year.

All of it for naught if we don't dive hard into QBOTF pool.

Exactly. The Vikings were the 7th ranked scoring offense. No reason to think they can't be just as good next year. Even a slight improvement on defense and the team will be competitive.

Probably.

Cook is not who he once was, but if he and Mattison are gone, we're counting on totally unproven kids at RB.

I think KJ can step into the #2 role, but we need to see how he handles it full-time. Can Nailor be a #3?

lots of teams do fine with young RBs, not worried


would rather focus on OL, WR, QBOTF

a legit/good WR2 would do more to open the offense, than a step down from this year's Cook to a servicable RB

IMO

You're putting words in my mouth.

All I'm saying is its entirely possible we take a step back on offense this year as we really don't have the funds to go WR or OLine shopping. And there is no guarantee that one of the unproven RBs or even KJ can step up as much as we need.

Cook and Thielen really need to go, and I'm excited about the potential of a bigger role for KJ. And I think Chandler is really intriguing - but he has 6 carries for 20 yards for his career.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I think we sabotaging by keeping Kirk.

Other than an accurate passer, and durability, what other strengths does he have as a QB ?