RE: General Vikes Talk

Talk Vikes and Other MN Sports

Forums Register Login My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums

Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ Ticket List Log Out

RE: General Vikes Talk

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [The Minnesota Vikings] >> Vikes Talk >> RE: General Vikes Talk

Page: << < prev 205 206 [207] 208 209 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 12:12:55 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19462
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Yes, Kirk DID sabotage the 2022 season, by not getting a TD in either of his last 2 drives, and especially not really trying to convert the last 4th down pass.

The Vikings defensive coordinator made Kirk's job tough, and Kirk didn't rise to the occasion.

I don't want 'stability' at QB anymore, I want chance for greatness. And they should keep trying to draft that.

Post #: 5151

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 12:32:08 PM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 14027
Status: offline

The KC Stan’s are never, ever gonna shut up about “it wasn’t his fault”..

He played better this season and had his clutch moments.

But be honest… this season was an outlier in so many ways..

I, personally can not ignore his failures.

He can’t read his routes and receivers quickly at all..

He made at least 5: WTF? throws PER GAME.

Playoffs: 1-3

Throwing the ball short of the line to gain, always..always..always.

Zero pocket presence, zero mobility, taking sacks when a stat killing throw way is the better option.

His deer in the head.ights leadership under game pressure.

He’s a ten year plus veteran QB who has done nothing but raise hopes and the crush expectations with mediocrity in the playoffs.

I’m done. With any faith or belief in Kirk Cousins.

We are stuck with this no trade clause idiot for another year.

If Donatello is DC next year, I become as casual a fan as I was while I was deployed on a submarine..

Brad want to draft Defensive backs..

I want to draft defensive linemen who can both stop the run, seal the edges and get into the backfield.

Offensive linemen are ALWAYS a high priority.

You Have to take a shot at QB every year till you find one

**Edit: I can’t even give him credit for Darrisaw…
I personally think KAM blew the 2022 draft out his ass and failed miserably finding any talent,with the exception of Darrisaw.**

At this rate, we will never have a team of young stalwart players who can compliment each other and create a team with balanced talent on both sides.

If mr irrelevant is playing, as a rookie, in the divisional championship game, WTF is Kirk Cousins Excuse?

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 1/18/2023 1:22:40 PM >

_____________________________

**** you all.

Post #: 5152

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 12:36:27 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

So, if NE hires McCardell for OC, do we get a 3rd rounder??

Post #: 5153

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 1:38:29 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list.

Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid.

Bet that would go over just great.

It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal.

The Vikings are not a QB away. No QB is going to make a playoff run with the worst defense in the entire league, not just the worst defense of playoff teams but the entire league.

The Vikings have not let anybody good walk because of the QB contract.

The drafts have been horrible, that's how you build a team. The GM'ing has also been horrible.... hanging on to safeties, LB, and RB at the expense of salary cap space should never happen. Have a really good LB, Safety, or RB? Trade them to a sucker for high draft picks.

I'm struggling to keep up with this conversation. Trying to find a top-10 QB and not giving up until you do is independent of current talent of defense, good drafting, bad drafting, hanging on to players too long, etc...

You always have to make good decisions outside of who the QB is. You think GB is 8-9 because of Rodgers? You think LAC are 10-7 because their GM had a stellar year?

I look back specifically on those 3 drafts as the reason we didn't go farther in the playoffs.

Same reason we went farther with Case. 2014 and 2015 drafts produced 5 bonafide starters (Waynes, Barr, Kendricks, Diggs, and Hunter). Also Teddy and McKinnon. They need a stellar 2023 draft no matter what direction they choose.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 1/18/2023 1:43:56 PM >

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 5154

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 1:45:33 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

As shitty as that decision was (and it was very).....would it have mattered if he did? If they had 20 seconds on the clock and we kicked it out of the back of the endzone, how confident would you have been with us keeping them out of FG range?

The historically bad defense probably would have lost the game, and then covered up the fact that Kirk isn't clutch in playoff games.

Instead, it was on complete display.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5155

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 1:48:35 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

I think Mahomes would have still beaten the Giants, and then give us a shot to win at SF, maybe even won that. [Mahomes now has a shitty defense, let's see how far he takes them, it will probably answer your question]

With Kirk, there was no beating the Giants, and I don't think we would have had a shot at SF.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5156

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 1:55:50 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Yes, I think GB was 8-9 because of Rodgers, he played poorly. His defense, special teams and run game all played well.

If I were GB, I would trade Rodgers, roll the dice with Love, but also consider drafting a QOTF either with the 1st round pick from trading Rodgers, or with GBs 1st pick.

SD is 10-7 because of Herbert, I feel their head coach was why they didn't advance any further.

A different DC (than Donatell) likely would have gotten Kirk and the Vikings past the Giants, but I am not sure if that different DC could have gotten Kirk and the Vikings past SF in SF. But I do agree that a better DC has them probably getting home field advantage over SF (with a win over Detroit), but then question whether or not that would have brought a win over SF at home in the playoffs.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5157

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 2:00:20 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

I think Kwesi had a horrible draft. I wonder if Spielman might have taken QB Kenny Pickett in the 1st round, and Christian Watson in the 2nd.

Maybe the Vikings got the right head coach, but have the wrong GM ?

At least Kwesi got Zed (who was great for the 1st 8 games) and Hock, made up for a bad draft.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5158

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 2:22:39 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28639
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list.

Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid.

Bet that would go over just great.

It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal.

The Vikings are not a QB away. No QB is going to make a playoff run with the worst defense in the entire league, not just the worst defense of playoff teams but the entire league.

The Vikings have not let anybody good walk because of the QB contract.

The drafts have been horrible, that's how you build a team. The GM'ing has also been horrible.... hanging on to safeties, LB, and RB at the expense of salary cap space should never happen. Have a really good LB, Safety, or RB? Trade them to a sucker for high draft picks.

I'm struggling to keep up with this conversation. Trying to find a top-10 QB and not giving up until you do is independent of current talent of defense, good drafting, bad drafting, hanging on to players too long, etc...

Yeah that made no sense. The simple premise that people have replied to him about is you have to at least TRY for a QBOTF.

There are no sure things. But you have to try at THE absolute premium position. You shouldn't sit back content with throwing short of the sticks. Case Freakin' Keenum sure didn't 5 years ago.

Post #: 5159

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 2:31:20 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28639
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

The KC Stan’s are never, ever gonna shut up about “it wasn’t his fault”..

He played better this season and had his clutch moments.

But be honest… this season was an outlier in so many ways..

I, personally can not ignore his failures.

He can’t read his routes and receivers quickly at all..

He made at least 5: WTF? throws PER GAME.

Playoffs: 1-3

Throwing the ball short of the line to gain, always..always..always.

Zero pocket presence, zero mobility, taking sacks when a stat killing throw way is the better option.

His deer in the head.ights leadership under game pressure.

He’s a ten year plus veteran QB who has done nothing but raise hopes and the crush expectations with mediocrity in the playoffs.

I’m done. With any faith or belief in Kirk Cousins.

We are stuck with this no trade clause idiot for another year.

If Donatello is DC next year, I become as casual a fan as I was while I was deployed on a submarine..

Brad want to draft Defensive backs..

I want to draft defensive linemen who can both stop the run, seal the edges and get into the backfield.

Offensive linemen are ALWAYS a high priority.

You Have to take a shot at QB every year till you find one

**Edit: I can’t even give him credit for Darrisaw…
I personally think KAM blew the 2022 draft out his ass and failed miserably finding any talent,with the exception of Darrisaw.**

At this rate, we will never have a team of young stalwart players who can compliment each other and create a team with balanced talent on both sides.

If mr irrelevant is playing, as a rookie, in the divisional championship game, WTF is Kirk Cousins Excuse?

Cousins is 1-4 in the playoffs.

A single playoff win in 11 seasons. But just hold on now! If we have a perfect roster this and great coaching that and yadda yadda, he will lead us to the SB trophy!

Post #: 5160

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 2:37:19 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28639
Status: offline

From a pure mathematical average, there is a 9% chance Cousins will win a playoff game in a given year.

Post #: 5161

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 3:13:41 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

Probably the reason the Thielen's are upset:
Something of note is that Thielen has a 12m bonus due in March

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 5162

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 3:43:38 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Probably the reason the Thielen's are upset:
Something of note is that Thielen has a 12m bonus due in March

He is an awesome person and a very good player a couple years ago. But, if you can't get open, we can't give you 12M.

Post #: 5163

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 3:43:39 PM

joejitsu

Posts: 15425
Joined: 3/21/2010
From: 60411
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Probably the reason the Thielen's are upset:
Something of note is that Thielen has a 12m bonus due in March

I have a feeling he won’t be seeing that windfall from us. We have to make some growed up business decisions if the defense is going to get better any time soon.

Post #: 5164

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 3:56:52 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27446
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Probably the reason the Thielen's are upset:
Something of note is that Thielen has a 12m bonus due in March

I have a feeling he won’t be seeing that windfall from us. We have to make some growed up business decisions if the defense is going to get better any time soon.

Been talked about in a few places:
Following the loss against New York in the first round of the playoffs, Thielen’s wife Caitlin seemed to suggest on social media that they would likely be headed elsewhere next season.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 5165

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 4:19:48 PM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 14027
Status: offline

Don’t let the door hit you in the ass..

_____________________________

**** you all.

Post #: 5166

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 4:22:08 PM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Thielen and his wife can share their rage with his agent.

He knows how the game is played, only thing you can count on is the guaranteed money. The rest is just financial gymnastics.

Post #: 5167

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 4:26:08 PM

Karl Juhnke

Posts: 13029
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Yes, Kirk DID sabotage the 2022 season, by not getting a TD in either of his last 2 drives, and especially not really trying to convert the last 4th down pass.

The Vikings defensive coordinator made Kirk's job tough, and Kirk didn't rise to the occasion.

I don't want 'stability' at QB anymore, I want chance for greatness. And they should keep trying to draft that.

As shitty as that decision was (and it was very).....would it have mattered if he did? If they had 20 seconds on the clock and we kicked it out of the back of the endzone, how confident would you have been with us keeping them out of FG range?

Cousins literally did not have time to make a 'decision'.

Watch the play carefully. The pocket seemed normal for a split second, but quickly collapsed. There was a defender immediately up into Cousins on his left and another behind bearing down. He had less than 3 seconds. About 2.5. There are no 'check downs', no surveying the field, no weighing options in 2.5 seconds. He threw the ball as quickly as he could to the receiver in his line of sight. Because any completion (and hoping for some YAC) is better than getting sacked.

Now maybe you could argue a more agile QB could have avoided the pressure and bought a little more time. That's fair. But it would have taken an amazing play. A Minneapolis Miracle II.

Post #: 5168

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 4:30:24 PM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 14027
Status: offline

The whole series was a cluster ****…

That’s on KOC.

“KC had no time…”

That’s different from the entire season, how?

Stop excusing a mediocre QB..

Just stop.

_____________________________

**** you all.

Post #: 5169

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 4:58:04 PM

Karl Juhnke

Posts: 13029
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

The whole series was a cluster ****…

That’s on KOC.

“KC had no time…”

That’s different from the entire season, how?

Stop excusing a mediocre QB..

Just stop.

I'm no Cousins bobo. He's OK but If they decided to go another direction at QB that'd be fine with me. But don't say he made a bad 'decision' on the last play. Because it's just wrong.

Post #: 5170

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 5:01:35 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

If Brady were Kirk's age, he would have seen Jefferson covered, and fired it to Osborn who was coming open. 80% chance it's a completion for a 1st down.

Now had the defender still made an incredible play and knocked down the ball that was leading Osborn, we would have felt like at least this 2023 playoff Kirk is continuing to do what he did in the regular season, and went down swinging, giving his team a chance.

The Hock option, should only have been if the QB had quick pocket presence, was able to get away from the pocket, and then could set up the LBer covering Hock to think the mobile Kirk was going to run, and he lofts a pass over the LBer, and to Hock who runs for an easy first down.
N

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5171

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 6:06:49 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

The whole series was a cluster ****…

That’s on KOC.

“KC had no time…”

That’s different from the entire season, how?

Stop excusing a mediocre QB..

Just stop.

I'm no Cousins bobo. He's OK but If they decided to go another direction at QB that'd be fine with me. But don't say he made a bad 'decision' on the last play. Because it's just wrong.

Absolutely wrong, bad decision.

He had two other options besides Hockaloogie... (besides throwing it up for Jefferson to do what he does)

1) dumping it to Cook who had released into the left flat was still a throw short of the sticks but AT LEAST that outlet had a ton of space and one guy to make miss (ok, Cook is not what he once was but the one defender was literally 10-15 yds away) ... don't toss it to the other outlet with a defender hanging all over his back),

2) the best option would have been Osborne who was breaking free into the middle of the field - wide open - if Cousins had an ounce of anticipation and/or processing speed ... a no brainer.

Cousins stared at Jefferson getting bracketed then dumped it to the quickest option after that and most likely to fail.

I will say that Hockensen ran into his defender, squared his route to the sideline which didn't help Cousins at all. He should have angled right and given the sticks a chance ... even so ...

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 1/18/2023 6:09:51 PM >

Post #: 5172

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 6:08:10 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Yes, Kirk DID sabotage the 2022 season, by not getting a TD in either of his last 2 drives, and especially not really trying to convert the last 4th down pass.

The Vikings defensive coordinator made Kirk's job tough, and Kirk didn't rise to the occasion.

I don't want 'stability' at QB anymore, I want chance for greatness. And they should keep trying to draft that.

As shitty as that decision was (and it was very).....would it have mattered if he did? If they had 20 seconds on the clock and we kicked it out of the back of the endzone, how confident would you have been with us keeping them out of FG range?

Cousins literally did not have time to make a 'decision'.

Watch the play carefully. The pocket seemed normal for a split second, but quickly collapsed. There was a defender immediately up into Cousins on his left and another behind bearing down. He had less than 3 seconds. About 2.5. There are no 'check downs', no surveying the field, no weighing options in 2.5 seconds. He threw the ball as quickly as he could to the receiver in his line of sight. Because any completion (and hoping for some YAC) is better than getting sacked.

Now maybe you could argue a more agile QB could have avoided the pressure and bought a little more time. That's fair. But it would have taken an amazing play. A Minneapolis Miracle II.

Go back and watch kurt Warner's breakdown and if you don't take his word for it then so be it. 2.5 seconds is exactly the point where ESPN's Pass Block Win Rate (PBWR) threshold is. If the line holds for 2.5 seconds or more its a win. Less than 2.5 seconds its a loss. In other words, 2.5 seconds is what should be expected.

In regards to a more mobile QB - it would not have taken a miracle to avoid that pressure. A couple of steps and a pump fake would have done it.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5173

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 6:09:26 PM

Karl Juhnke

Posts: 13029
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

If Brady were Kirk's age, he would have seen Jefferson covered, and fired it to Osborn who was coming open. 80% chance it's a completion for a 1st down.

Now had the defender still made an incredible play and knocked down the ball that was leading Osborn, we would have felt like at least this 2023 playoff Kirk is continuing to do what he did in the regular season, and went down swinging, giving his team a chance.

The Hock option, should only have been if the QB had quick pocket presence, was able to get away from the pocket, and then could set up the LBer covering Hock to think the mobile Kirk was going to run, and he lofts a pass over the LBer, and to Hock who runs for an easy first down.
N

The only QB who could have made something out it it would have been an extremely quick and mobile one. Brady was never that guy. Maybe Mahomes? A guy who can instantly react to elude pressure and pull plays out of his ass. Not many qualify.

Post #: 5174

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2023 6:10:50 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

How many teams thought tanking for Baker Mayfield Josh Rosen Sam Darnold Kyler Murray was a good idea? I doubt any will admit it now but I am sure some thought there was a can’t miss in that list.

Walk into locker room and tell the team the plan is to suck beyond sucking so they can position themselves to draft a kid.

Bet that would go over just great.

It was a good idea. And when it didn't work out you try it again. And again. At least you have a chance versus an overpriced vet who will get you mediocrity but no shot at the ultimate goal.

The Vikings are not a QB away. No QB is going to make a playoff run with the worst defense in the entire league, not just the worst defense of playoff teams but the entire league.

The Vikings have not let anybody good walk because of the QB contract.

The drafts have been horrible, that's how you build a team. The GM'ing has also been horrible.... hanging on to safeties, LB, and RB at the expense of salary cap space should never happen. Have a really good LB, Safety, or RB? Trade them to a sucker for high draft picks.

I'm struggling to keep up with this conversation. Trying to find a top-10 QB and not giving up until you do is independent of current talent of defense, good drafting, bad drafting, hanging on to players too long, etc...

You always have to make good decisions outside of who the QB is. You think GB is 8-9 because of Rodgers? You think LAC are 10-7 because their GM had a stellar year?

I look back specifically on those 3 drafts as the reason we didn't go farther in the playoffs.

Same reason we went farther with Case. 2014 and 2015 drafts produced 5 bonafide starters (Waynes, Barr, Kendricks, Diggs, and Hunter). Also Teddy and McKinnon. They need a stellar 2023 draft no matter what direction they choose.

OK, once again - I don't even understand where this is going. I'm not saying JUST look for a qb and forgo everything else. I'm saying look for a top 10 qb and don't stop until you find one. In the meantime though - yes, also try to field the rest of the team. I can't believe I even needed to type that.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5175