quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
Video of Kobe getting injured and shooting two free throws after it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0EPEIoi9eI
Laker trainer on the immediate moments after Kobe's injury and in the locker room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP0sXxxmxk
Seems he was determined to walk off based in part as a shot to Paul Pierce. And he demanded to have surgery the next morning, which happened.
The point of all this is to say before the pro-Cousins crowd gets excited about a possible eight-month return, note that every achilles injury is different and Kobe was a unique competitor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Video of Kobe getting injured and shooting two free throws after it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0EPEIoi9eI

Laker trainer on the immediate moments after Kobe's injury and in the locker room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP0sXxxmxk
Seems he was determined to walk off based in part as a shot to Paul Pierce. And he demanded to have surgery the next morning, which happened.



The point of all this is to say before the pro-Cousins crowd gets excited about a possible eight-month return, note that every achilles injury is different and Kobe was a unique competitor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

I don't see what's so funny. I gave it years before deciding in my opinion it was time to go another route. Really the only issue I have is all the dead money we'll be paying next year. You seem to be really taking it personally that he got injured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

I don't see what's so funny. I gave it years before deciding in my opinion it was time to go another route. Really the only issue I have is all the dead money we'll be paying next year. You seem to be really taking it personally that he got injured.

Easy...he says he has no hard feelings....his posts say different. Most don't care one way or the other. Matters who available in the draft and how Hall/Dobbs perform. Yet Kirk may be the best option in the end....that would be what is the best for the team.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Video of Kobe getting injured and shooting two free throws after it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0EPEIoi9eI

Laker trainer on the immediate moments after Kobe's injury and in the locker room: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP0sXxxmxk
Seems he was determined to walk off based in part as a shot to Paul Pierce. And he demanded to have surgery the next morning, which happened.



The point of all this is to say before the pro-Cousins crowd gets excited about a possible eight-month return, note that every achilles injury is different and Kobe was a unique competitor.

Kobe walks on it just after the injury. Cousins couldn't put his weight on his. Definitely not the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

I don't see what's so funny. I gave it years before deciding in my opinion it was time to go another route. Really the only issue I have is all the dead money we'll be paying next year. You seem to be really taking it personally that he got injured.

Easy...he says he has no hard feelings....his posts say different. Most don't care one way or the other. Matters who available in the draft and how Hall/Dobbs perform. Yet Kirk may be the best option in the end....that would be what is the best for the team.

I'd think a young qb that doesn't have much cap hit is probably best for the team. But just my humble opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Addison looks like a future Pro Bowler, maybe All Pro.

But, did we make a mistake not drafting Levis? It was just one game but the guy is athletic and has the big arm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Maye
Sanders
Nix
Daniels
McCarthy
Penix
Ward
Ewers

Even if we sneak into playoffs as Wildcard, we can get one of these guys.

Maye is supposed to be clear #2. Not sure if that is true.

I think Daniels could be viewed as a Lamar Jackson type and will rise up boards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

See why I have him on Block? I wish there was a feature to block imbedded posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.
It’s not possible for Kirk cousins to be the best chance for the Vikings’ success. The team’s success with him has been laughable. We can get the same amount of success (or more) from Hall/Dobbs (as we’re about to see). Now consider giving a highly touted rookie we draft in 2024 a shot? The upside is potentially unlimited and the floor will still be mediocrity. Yet so many want to run it back with known mediocrity that comes at a high price?

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

It’s not possible for Kirk cousins to be the best chance for the Vikings’ success. The team’s success with him has been laughable. We can get the same amount of success (or more) from Hall/Dobbs (as we’re about to see). Now consider giving a highly touted rookie we draft in 2024 a shot? The upside is potentially unlimited and the floor will still be mediocrity. Yet so many want to run it back with known mediocrity that comes at a high price?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Addison looks like a future Pro Bowler, maybe All Pro.

But, did we make a mistake not drafting Levis? It was just one game but the guy is athletic and has the big arm.

Would have given the team an extra shot at a top QB while the rest of the offensive pieces are in place. Evaluate Levis this year, and if need be pick another top one next year. Certainly helps to have hit on Addison.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Yeah, just like that stupid Joe Mauer, made the Twins give him all that money.

ps: no fan of a team is impressed when someone takes up a large percentage of the cap. Unless one can be assured they themselves would be just grateful to play the game for money and would be handing out team-friendly deals a lot of the anger towards Cousins and how much money he made is hypocrisy, imo.

- seriously, though, what in the world does a guy who drives around in a shitty family van do with all that money?

Both statements are IMO off the mark.

- I don't have a problem with someone taking up a ton of cap if they produce big. And that means playing big in the playoffs, leading the team when the chips are down, winning the big one, being a transcendent player like Lawrence Taylor, etc. Generally, this applies to QB since that position is the most important one on the field.

- Joe Six Pack being grateful to play for (no?) money has no bearing on big dollar, cap crushing professional contracts so hypocrisy is a non-starter.

My point is, what good does it do to "hate" someone 'cause they got what you would of got in the same situation. Makes more sense to me to hate the GM, owners, wait ....

Ok, I really don't give a shti. I knew better to throw in my 2 cents. I just want the conversation to be over with and am tired of both sides of it - so, I'm as bad as the next guy

Well, your post was entirely about money so that's what I replied to.

Yes, both 'sides' are feeding the fire and you are definitely a big part of one side.

Yep the 2 sides are Kirk Haters and the whats best for the team side.

So if we don't see it just like you are we automatically a "hater?" I don't hate him at all. Thought it was worth a shot and now it's over. I have no hard feelings about any of it.

See why I have him on Block? I wish there was a feature to block imbedded posts.

You put on and take people off block more than all other posters combined. And the fact that you have to announce it each time like we need to know what goes on in your mind is bizarre.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Addison looks like a future Pro Bowler, maybe All Pro.

But, did we make a mistake not drafting Levis? It was just one game but the guy is athletic and has the big arm.

Would have given the team an extra shot at a top QB while the rest of the offensive pieces are in place. Evaluate Levis this year, and if need be pick another top one next year. Certainly helps to have hit on Addison.

I think there were some injury concerns with him(Levis). Time will tell if we made a mistake.

Nice to see you back on here, jbusse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Addison looks like a future Pro Bowler, maybe All Pro.

But, did we make a mistake not drafting Levis? It was just one game but the guy is athletic and has the big arm.

Would have given the team an extra shot at a top QB while the rest of the offensive pieces are in place. Evaluate Levis this year, and if need be pick another top one next year. Certainly helps to have hit on Addison.

I think there were some injury concerns with him(Levis). Time will tell if we made a mistake.

Nice to see you back on here, jbusse.

So desperate for play makers we had to use our 2nd for TJ........would have been a great option. Maybe Hall/Dobbs will perform just as well?