quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Weren't there a lot of complaints about Cleveland not being any good before we traded him?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if not, it can't be too hard to replace someone that's not any good?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Weren't there a lot of complaints about Cleveland not being any good before we traded him?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if not, it can't be too hard to replace someone that's not any good?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

Flores is an INCREDIBLE defensive coordinator.

But people have serious short term memory on his head coaching stint.
He was not a great head coach.
He was not good for Tua.

Best case scenario is Flores beef with the NFL and some of his bad press by Tua/former players keeps him with Vikes for another year and KOC improves.

I'm gonna push back on that a little bit. Flores won eight of his last nine games as the head coach in Miami. How many people get fired after finishing 8-1?

He was riddled with injuries during his tenure as the head coach and is largely responsible for the turnaround of the franchise.

Again... Flores is an INCREDIBLE coordinator.
But I don't know if he is an upgrade on KOC or not. maybe?

Same things you credit Flores with you can attribute to KOC.

"How many people get fired after finishing 8-1?"
KOC is what... 20-10.
How many guys get fired starting out with 2-1 win ratio.

"He was riddled with injuries"
KOC lost Kirk.

KOC/Flores both with zero playoff wins.

Could he be great?
Yep, possible.
But I wouldn't say it's a slam dunk.

It's an offensive league.
Ideal scenario is offensive genius HC and defensive guru DC.

IMO of course.

I never said anything about KOC. You said Flores was not a great coach. I responded.

The best thing for Tua was landing #10. We saw that on display last night. Tyreek Hill is the most valuable player on that team.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

Flores is an INCREDIBLE defensive coordinator.

But people have serious short term memory on his head coaching stint.
He was not a great head coach.
He was not good for Tua.

Best case scenario is Flores beef with the NFL and some of his bad press by Tua/former players keeps him with Vikes for another year and KOC improves.

I'm gonna push back on that a little bit. Flores won eight of his last nine games as the head coach in Miami. How many people get fired after finishing 8-1?

He was riddled with injuries during his tenure as the head coach and is largely responsible for the turnaround of the franchise.

Again... Flores is an INCREDIBLE coordinator.
But I don't know if he is an upgrade on KOC or not. maybe?

Same things you credit Flores with you can attribute to KOC.

"How many people get fired after finishing 8-1?"
KOC is what... 20-10.
How many guys get fired starting out with 2-1 win ratio.

"He was riddled with injuries"
KOC lost Kirk.

KOC/Flores both with zero playoff wins.

Could he be great?
Yep, possible.
But I wouldn't say it's a slam dunk.

It's an offensive league.
Ideal scenario is offensive genius HC and defensive guru DC.

IMO of course.

I never said anything about KOC. You said Flores was not a great coach. I responded.

The best thing for Tua was landing #10. We saw that on display last night. Tyreek Hill is the most valuable player on that team.

Fair enough... but the broader discussion is replacing KOC with Flores.

I didn't say Flores was terrible... I meant that he is hardly proven to be a great head coach.

You have to do more than he has done in my opinion to be considered a great head coach.
Flores is still just as unproven as a head coach as KOC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Weren't there a lot of complaints about Cleveland not being any good before we traded him?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if not, it can't be too hard to replace someone that's not any good?

Yeah, He struggled. But he was durable and we didn't have anyone better to replace him.

I don't see how a 2024 6th round pick 6 games into the 2023 season is more valuable than that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Weren't there a lot of complaints about Cleveland not being any good before we traded him?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if not, it can't be too hard to replace someone that's not any good?

Yeah, He struggled. But he was durable and we didn't have anyone better to replace him.

I don't see how a 2024 6th round pick 6 games into the 2023 season is more valuable than that.

Maybe so. I probably don't know enough to even get into this particular conversation. I went and looked at the practice squad and am posting the only OL transactions since 8/31:

11/20 Activated G/C Chris Reed to 53-man roster.
11/4 OL Coy Cronk to practice squad
10/31 traded Cleveland
8/31 OL Hakeem Adeniji, OL Henry Byrd and OL Tyrese Robinson to the practice squad

- I tell ya, the practice squad has a lot of movement but not much in the way of OL

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hot takes while connecting in Denver: I have no problem who they start at qb for any game going forward - including Dobbs. Dude played poorly yesterday but not as poorly as it seemed. He outperformed every O lineman and every pass catcher not named Jefferson.

Mattison continues to be the adequate running back we expected. I’m still puzzled by the hate he gets from fans.

It’s too early to judge Kevin O’Connell. I won’t make a judgement on him until he gets a quality qb of his choosing or until he completes five years.

If Flores says ‘make me head coach or I walk’ I’d have to really think it over and wouldn’t be afraid to say ok or sorry.

Lots of twitter folks asking if anyone misses Kirk cousins now. I guess yesterday’s game was kind of the Super Bowl for Kirk fans (they lose again btw). I don’t miss him. We continue to get the same results with him or without him. I don’t care if he gets yards or TDs more efficiently. I don’t cheer for stats. I cheer for the chance to reach the Super Bowl. If I were a Kirk fan I’d be careful about promising the team would be so much better with him when we get better results without him and he’s replaced with a pile of below-average nobodies.

I look forward to taking a chance on a rookie qb with the possibility of being a quality player on a cheap deal with skills for the modern game. I’ll like it even better if that player is perceived by fans and media as being an awesome Christian and excellent family man. I hope the new guy’s wife buys his clothes for him at Kohls. Why? Because I know MN fans and media eat that shit up and I want the new guy to feel appreciated and at home. Just don’t be a check down coward that just works here.

What are you trying to justify David? Your First, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences seem to somehow deflect that your philosphy of any QB coming in and scoring more than 20 points was wrong?

Most are at best 50% that Kirk should be back....

How about you just say you are wrong in what you thought.....it isn't easy getting a qb that can throw for 16 TDS in 6.75 games is it? There just aren't that many decent QBs; even as a backup.

I’m not, and never have, trying to lump our backups into the good pile. I am, and have been, lumping cousins into the not-great pile.

More hot takes: I’d like to sell you a car. I have four available for sale. All four of them get you to the same place which is not near where you want to go. One of them has nice paint. The nice paint one costs 30x what the other three do. Will that be cash or finance? Of course it will be finance. We’ll stick a bunch of the cost into a year in which you don’t even own it anymore.

Edit - P.S. Hang the 16 TDs in 6.75 games banner! Hang it next to the “AD got a whole bunch of yards” banner. All I wanted was a ‘clock the ball and beat the chargers” banner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

KOC is a bum and should be shown the door and Flores made HC.

Any time is good.

Most, if not all of us, felt that way about Tomlin and we were right. I'm afraid the same thing is about to happen. Not that O'Connell deserves to get fired, he doesn't, but Flores looks like he could be a keeper. Highly doubt the Wilf's have the gonads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

The best thing for Tua was landing #10. We saw that on display last night. Tyreek Hill is the most valuable player on that team.

quote:

ORIGINAL:

to illustrate why the Vikings may want to fire KOC and hire Flores

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL:

to illustrate why the Vikings may want to fire KOC and hire Flores

I wonder if front offices laugh over this kind of stuff having their morning coffee?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL:

to illustrate why the Vikings may want to fire KOC and hire Flores

I wonder if front offices laugh over this kind of stuff having their morning coffee?

The point is that "safe" moves rarely win championships. I provided two recent examples of a front office executives who had good coaches but took a chance on hiring a potential great ones. Take a look at what Flores has done with mostly the same players that Donatell had last year. It's night and day anv very damn impressive. Am I saying that KOC should be fired? No, not necessarily, but the job of the GM is to consider ALL possibilities at making your team great. If I were a front office person in the NFL enjoying my morning coffee, I'd certainly have Flores on my list as a potential head coach.

Didn't the Vikings loss Dungy and Tomlin because they failed to identify their potential as a head coach? Always, always be looking to improve your team in every way possible even if it seems unconventential at the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

Flores name can be rearranged to

loser F

So, I am out

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hot takes while connecting in Denver: I have no problem who they start at qb for any game going forward - including Dobbs. Dude played poorly yesterday but not as poorly as it seemed. He outperformed every O lineman and every pass catcher not named Jefferson.

Mattison continues to be the adequate running back we expected. I’m still puzzled by the hate he gets from fans.

It’s too early to judge Kevin O’Connell. I won’t make a judgement on him until he gets a quality qb of his choosing or until he completes five years.

If Flores says ‘make me head coach or I walk’ I’d have to really think it over and wouldn’t be afraid to say ok or sorry.

Lots of twitter folks asking if anyone misses Kirk cousins now. I guess yesterday’s game was kind of the Super Bowl for Kirk fans (they lose again btw). I don’t miss him. We continue to get the same results with him or without him. I don’t care if he gets yards or TDs more efficiently. I don’t cheer for stats. I cheer for the chance to reach the Super Bowl. If I were a Kirk fan I’d be careful about promising the team would be so much better with him when we get better results without him and he’s replaced with a pile of below-average nobodies.

I look forward to taking a chance on a rookie qb with the possibility of being a quality player on a cheap deal with skills for the modern game. I’ll like it even better if that player is perceived by fans and media as being an awesome Christian and excellent family man. I hope the new guy’s wife buys his clothes for him at Kohls. Why? Because I know MN fans and media eat that shit up and I want the new guy to feel appreciated and at home. Just don’t be a check down coward that just works here.

What are you trying to justify David? Your First, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences seem to somehow deflect that your philosphy of any QB coming in and scoring more than 20 points was wrong?

Most are at best 50% that Kirk should be back....

How about you just say you are wrong in what you thought.....it isn't easy getting a qb that can throw for 16 TDS in 6.75 games is it? There just aren't that many decent QBs; even as a backup.

I’m not, and never have, trying to lump our backups into the good pile. I am, and have been, lumping cousins into the not-great pile.

More hot takes: I’d like to sell you a car. I have four available for sale. All four of them get you to the same place which is not near where you want to go. One of them has nice paint. The nice paint one costs 30x what the other three do. Will that be cash or finance? Of course it will be finance. We’ll stick a bunch of the cost into a year in which you don’t even own it anymore.

Edit - P.S. Hang the 16 TDs in 6.75 games banner! Hang it next to the “AD got a whole bunch of yards” banner. All I wanted was a ‘clock the ball and beat the chargers” banner.

If the question is whether the team should bring back Cousins next year the answer should be "no". Is he better than the other QB's currently on the roster? Yes. But, David's point is a valid one. Cousins joined the team in 2018. Despite playing under multiple different offensive coordinators and completely different rosters over the years he's been unable to get the team to an NFC Championship game let alone a Super Bowl. Is he a "good" QB? Yes. But, history shows that being "good" is his ceiling. To expand on the car analogy, he doesn't have the next gear to carry a team to a Super Bowl win.

There are times when a sports franchise has to take a step backward before it can take a leap forward. The problem that I've seen with the Vikings is this desire to "compete" every year. If competing means challenging for the Super Bowl, then I'm all in. If it means just making the playoffs, then that isn't a big accomplishment given that a total of 14 teams or about 44% of the NFL gets into the playoffs. What bothered me about Kwesi's "competitive rebuild" is that it seems to be about "making the playoffs" which really isn't that big of a deal anymore. I prefer a GM that looks at the big picture from Day 1 with the understanding that every single draft pick, every trade, every free agency acquisition and coaching hire is done with one goal in mind...does it move the needle toward winning the Super Bowl? With that in mind, don't resign Cousins because history shows he can not bring this team to the Super Bowl. Cut Mullens after this season. He's a nobody that never was or will be. Bring in the very best QB's that you can get your hands on until you land the QB that has that higher gear that quarterbacks like Cousins simply will never have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hot takes while connecting in Denver: I have no problem who they start at qb for any game going forward - including Dobbs. Dude played poorly yesterday but not as poorly as it seemed. He outperformed every O lineman and every pass catcher not named Jefferson.

Mattison continues to be the adequate running back we expected. I’m still puzzled by the hate he gets from fans.

It’s too early to judge Kevin O’Connell. I won’t make a judgement on him until he gets a quality qb of his choosing or until he completes five years.

If Flores says ‘make me head coach or I walk’ I’d have to really think it over and wouldn’t be afraid to say ok or sorry.

Lots of twitter folks asking if anyone misses Kirk cousins now. I guess yesterday’s game was kind of the Super Bowl for Kirk fans (they lose again btw). I don’t miss him. We continue to get the same results with him or without him. I don’t care if he gets yards or TDs more efficiently. I don’t cheer for stats. I cheer for the chance to reach the Super Bowl. If I were a Kirk fan I’d be careful about promising the team would be so much better with him when we get better results without him and he’s replaced with a pile of below-average nobodies.

I look forward to taking a chance on a rookie qb with the possibility of being a quality player on a cheap deal with skills for the modern game. I’ll like it even better if that player is perceived by fans and media as being an awesome Christian and excellent family man. I hope the new guy’s wife buys his clothes for him at Kohls. Why? Because I know MN fans and media eat that shit up and I want the new guy to feel appreciated and at home. Just don’t be a check down coward that just works here.

What are you trying to justify David? Your First, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences seem to somehow deflect that your philosphy of any QB coming in and scoring more than 20 points was wrong?

Most are at best 50% that Kirk should be back....

How about you just say you are wrong in what you thought.....it isn't easy getting a qb that can throw for 16 TDS in 6.75 games is it? There just aren't that many decent QBs; even as a backup.

I’m not, and never have, trying to lump our backups into the good pile. I am, and have been, lumping cousins into the not-great pile.

More hot takes: I’d like to sell you a car. I have four available for sale. All four of them get you to the same place which is not near where you want to go. One of them has nice paint. The nice paint one costs 30x what the other three do. Will that be cash or finance? Of course it will be finance. We’ll stick a bunch of the cost into a year in which you don’t even own it anymore.

Edit - P.S. Hang the 16 TDs in 6.75 games banner! Hang it next to the “AD got a whole bunch of yards” banner. All I wanted was a ‘clock the ball and beat the chargers” banner.

If the question is whether the team should bring back Cousins next year the answer should be "no". Is he better than the other QB's currently on the roster? Yes. But, David's point is a valid one. Cousins joined the team in 2018. Despite playing under multiple different offensive coordinators and completely different rosters over the years he's been unable to get the team to an NFC Championship game let alone a Super Bowl. Is he a "good" QB? Yes. But, history shows that being "good" is his ceiling. To expand on the car analogy, he doesn't have the next gear to carry a team to a Super Bowl win.

There are times when a sports franchise has to take a step backward before it can take a leap forward. The problem that I've seen with the Vikings is this desire to "compete" every year. If competing means challenging for the Super Bowl, then I'm all in. If it means just making the playoffs, then that isn't a big accomplishment given that a total of 14 teams or about 44% of the NFL gets into the playoffs. What bothered me about Kwesi's "competitive rebuild" is that it seems to be about "making the playoffs" which really isn't that big of a deal anymore. I prefer a GM that looks at the big picture from Day 1 with the understanding that every single draft pick, every trade, every free agency acquisition and coaching hire is done with one goal in mind...does it move the needle toward winning the Super Bowl? With that in mind, don't resign Cousins because history shows he can not bring this team to the Super Bowl. Cut Mullens after this season. He's a nobody that never was or will be. Bring in the very best QB's that you can get your hands on until you land the QB that has that higher gear that quarterbacks like Cousins simply will never have.

Great post Mark!

Pretty much sums up how I feel, especially the bolded.