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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 10:05:38 AM  1 votes
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hot takes while connecting in Denver: I have no problem who they start at qb for any game going forward - including Dobbs. Dude played poorly yesterday but not as poorly as it seemed. He outperformed every O lineman and every pass catcher not named Jefferson.

Mattison continues to be the adequate running back we expected. I’m still puzzled by the hate he gets from fans.

It’s too early to judge Kevin O’Connell. I won’t make a judgement on him until he gets a quality qb of his choosing or until he completes five years.

If Flores says ‘make me head coach or I walk’ I’d have to really think it over and wouldn’t be afraid to say ok or sorry.

Lots of twitter folks asking if anyone misses Kirk cousins now. I guess yesterday’s game was kind of the Super Bowl for Kirk fans (they lose again btw). I don’t miss him. We continue to get the same results with him or without him. I don’t care if he gets yards or TDs more efficiently. I don’t cheer for stats. I cheer for the chance to reach the Super Bowl. If I were a Kirk fan I’d be careful about promising the team would be so much better with him when we get better results without him and he’s replaced with a pile of below-average nobodies.

I look forward to taking a chance on a rookie qb with the possibility of being a quality player on a cheap deal with skills for the modern game. I’ll like it even better if that player is perceived by fans and media as being an awesome Christian and excellent family man. I hope the new guy’s wife buys his clothes for him at Kohls. Why? Because I know MN fans and media eat that shit up and I want the new guy to feel appreciated and at home. Just don’t be a check down coward that just works here.



What are you trying to justify David? Your First, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences seem to somehow deflect that your philosphy of any QB coming in and scoring more than 20 points was wrong?

Most are at best 50% that Kirk should be back....

How about you just say you are wrong in what you thought.....it isn't easy getting a qb that can throw for 16 TDS in 6.75 games is it? There just aren't that many decent QBs; even as a backup.


I’m not, and never have, trying to lump our backups into the good pile. I am, and have been, lumping cousins into the not-great pile.

More hot takes: I’d like to sell you a car. I have four available for sale. All four of them get you to the same place which is not near where you want to go. One of them has nice paint. The nice paint one costs 30x what the other three do. Will that be cash or finance? Of course it will be finance. We’ll stick a bunch of the cost into a year in which you don’t even own it anymore.

Edit - P.S. Hang the 16 TDs in 6.75 games banner! Hang it next to the “AD got a whole bunch of yards” banner. All I wanted was a ‘clock the ball and beat the chargers” banner.


If the question is whether the team should bring back Cousins next year the answer should be "no". Is he better than the other QB's currently on the roster? Yes. But, David's point is a valid one. Cousins joined the team in 2018. Despite playing under multiple different offensive coordinators and completely different rosters over the years he's been unable to get the team to an NFC Championship game let alone a Super Bowl. Is he a "good" QB? Yes. But, history shows that being "good" is his ceiling. To expand on the car analogy, he doesn't have the next gear to carry a team to a Super Bowl win.

There are times when a sports franchise has to take a step backward before it can take a leap forward. The problem that I've seen with the Vikings is this desire to "compete" every year. If competing means challenging for the Super Bowl, then I'm all in. If it means just making the playoffs, then that isn't a big accomplishment given that a total of 14 teams or about 44% of the NFL gets into the playoffs. What bothered me about Kwesi's "competitive rebuild" is that it seems to be about "making the playoffs" which really isn't that big of a deal anymore. I prefer a GM that looks at the big picture from Day 1 with the understanding that every single draft pick, every trade, every free agency acquisition and coaching hire is done with one goal in mind...does it move the needle toward winning the Super Bowl? With that in mind, don't resign Cousins because history shows he can not bring this team to the Super Bowl. Cut Mullens after this season. He's a nobody that never was or will be. Bring in the very best QB's that you can get your hands on until you land the QB that has that higher gear that quarterbacks like Cousins simply will never have.


Great post Mark!

Pretty much sums up how I feel, especially the bolded.

Are there GMs out there that don't do this? Do we have a GM that makes decisions that are for reasons other than getting better?

This place sometimes remind me of parents of hs kids out for sports. They know everything there is to know about winning a state championship from the bleachers


Our GM inherited a salary cap mess. He's been somewhat limited by that. He had to release a couple of veterans because of that. Cousins was going to be our QB last year and this year at least...then we can get clear of most of the salary cap hit by 2025. I feel like we need to give him the opportunity to build this thing with less salary cap limitations. He's made some good moves. and NO GM makes all good moves.

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Post #: 5901
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 12:32:11 PM   
Todd M

 

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It’s a shame we can’t have last years offense with this years Defense. Could have won it all.

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Post #: 5902
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 12:37:11 PM   
twinsfan


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Kurt Warner
@kurt13warner

Just watched @Vikings tape & I feel for @josh_dobbs1 being benched… so important to watch each play & not just see the results… I feel he played well, dropped passes all over, some things didn’t work & of coursed missed some, but far from a “benching” performance IMO!


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 1:00:01 PM   
beo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Kurt Warner
@kurt13warner

Just watched @Vikings tape & I feel for @josh_dobbs1 being benched… so important to watch each play & not just see the results… I feel he played well, dropped passes all over, some things didn’t work & of coursed missed some, but far from a “benching” performance IMO!



I've seen several reviews from the "experts" saying Dobbs didn't play that bad.
However, I would say almost all fans noticed the immediate difference when Mullins entered... it looked like an actual offense again.
Feel for Dobbs... but I just think he doesn't process fast enough.
Post #: 5904
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 1:00:47 PM   
Todd M

 

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Lose 2 in a row stinking up the place and your 3rd is an offense production reminiscent of 50’s football in stormy weather…you’re gonna get benched.

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The ego holds on to pain from the past to prevent pain in the future, which causes pain in the present.

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Post #: 5905
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 1:08:40 PM   
ronhextall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

It’s a shame we can’t have last years offense with this years Defense. Could have won it all.


At the very least they would have nuked Daniel Jones.

Its crazy how bad the defensive coaching was last season.
Post #: 5906
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 1:08:48 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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So.. what a veteran QB is saying is Dobbs wasn’t help out by all the drops..

Maybe his throws are to forced and bad placement..

If he hung JJ out to dry…

I want Hall to get snaps.. we are chasing mediocrity with Mullet ..

We need to see if there is anything KOC can do to generate offensive production consistently.

I suppose Mullet is our best roster option, but I don’t like it.. chasing mediocrity..

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 12/13/2023 1:10:06 PM >


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 3:25:40 PM   
Ricky J


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I never understood the "bad placement" excuse. Aren't these divas paid to make catches? Who can't go out in the back yard and catch a ball behind them? Did bad ball placement affect Randy, Cris?

Come on, catch the F ball - youre getting paid millions.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to drive a bunch of high schoolers to a bb game at $20 an hour
Post #: 5908
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 3:36:09 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Kurt Warner
@kurt13warner

Just watched @Vikings tape & I feel for @josh_dobbs1 being benched… so important to watch each play & not just see the results… I feel he played well, dropped passes all over, some things didn’t work & of coursed missed some, but far from a “benching” performance IMO!



I've seen several reviews from the "experts" saying Dobbs didn't play that bad.
However, I would say almost all fans noticed the immediate difference when Mullins entered... it looked like an actual offense again.
Feel for Dobbs... but I just think he doesn't process fast enough.


KOC's offense couldn't be a worse fit for Dobbs. Its all timing based and you have to be very accurate and "follow the script". Dobbs was great when he was sandlotting it out there, but each week as he integrates more of what KOC wants, he regresses as a player. Its the classic case of a coach forcing players to adapt instead of adapting to the players. Where are the RPOs, the rollouts, the designed QB runs? They don't exist because KOC is trying to make Dobbs into Cousins - and he'll never be that kind of QB.

Mullins, for all his warts, is in the Cousins mold. He's just not good and has historically been a turnover machine himself. Even his best play this week was a ball that was tipped by a defender...
Post #: 5909
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 3:38:29 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

I never understood the "bad placement" excuse. Aren't these divas paid to make catches? Who can't go out in the back yard and catch a ball behind them? Did bad ball placement affect Randy, Cris?

Come on, catch the F ball - youre getting paid millions.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to drive a bunch of high schoolers to a bb game at $20 an hour


How about when your ball placement puts you in harms way? Like when you have open field in front of you and a DB closing in fast behind and the ball thrown closer to the DB than the WR?

Or when you hang your guy out to dry by throwing the ball a couple feet too high and you leave your guy totally exposed to a huge hit?
Post #: 5910
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 4:16:57 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

I never understood the "bad placement" excuse. Aren't these divas paid to make catches? Who can't go out in the back yard and catch a ball behind them? Did bad ball placement affect Randy, Cris?

Come on, catch the F ball - youre getting paid millions.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to drive a bunch of high schoolers to a bb game at $20 an hour


How about when your ball placement puts you in harms way? Like when you have open field in front of you and a DB closing in fast behind and the ball thrown closer to the DB than the WR?

Or when you hang your guy out to dry by throwing the ball a couple feet too high and you leave your guy totally exposed to a huge hit?

How 'bout it? Everything's gotta be just perfect for success in this game of football?

Not too many people give excuses to a QB but there's plenty of it going around for WRs and mult others on the team - especially if your a Viking fan
Post #: 5911
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 4:23:37 PM   
Brad H


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

So.. what a veteran QB is saying is Dobbs wasn’t help out by all the drops..

Maybe his throws are to forced and bad placement..

If he hung JJ out to dry…

I want Hall to get snaps.. we are chasing mediocrity with Mullet ..

We need to see if there is anything KOC can do to generate offensive production consistently.

I suppose Mullet is our best roster option, but I don’t like it.. chasing mediocrity..

Cousins was 4-4. The backups are 3-2, without Jefferson.

_____________________________

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 4:24:58 PM   
Todd M

 

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Not too many people give excuses to a QB

——/

You help fill the void.

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The ego holds on to pain from the past to prevent pain in the future, which causes pain in the present.

Keith Crossley
Post #: 5913
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 5:04:50 PM   
David Levine


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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

I never understood the "bad placement" excuse. Aren't these divas paid to make catches? Who can't go out in the back yard and catch a ball behind them? Did bad ball placement affect Randy, Cris?

Come on, catch the F ball - youre getting paid millions.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to drive a bunch of high schoolers to a bb game at $20 an hour


How about when your ball placement puts you in harms way? Like when you have open field in front of you and a DB closing in fast behind and the ball thrown closer to the DB than the WR?

Or when you hang your guy out to dry by throwing the ball a couple feet too high and you leave your guy totally exposed to a huge hit?

How 'bout it? Everything's gotta be just perfect for success in this game of football?

Not too many people give excuses to a QB but there's plenty of it going around for WRs and mult others on the team - especially if your a Viking fan


Do you blame the catcher when a pitcher throws Ball 4 well out of the zone?

Accuracy is really important! No one ever said anything about being perfect. But there is a world of difference between a ball that the target has to stop and adjust to so the play ends on the catch and a ball that leads a receiver allowing for huge yards after the catch.

If a QB throws a pick 6 on a sideline route because he misplaced the ball by a foot, its not the receivers fault.

And back to your example, anyone can adjust to a ball in the backyard where there is no pressure and no one looking to take your head off. But in actual games, there are guys who excel at catching contested balls (Jefferson, Thielen, Diggs) and guys who really struggle with it (Addison, Osbourn).

Cousins has gotten a lot of praise here for his accuracy. Its other areas he comes up short.

< Message edited by David Levine -- 12/13/2023 5:06:03 PM >
Post #: 5914
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 5:18:34 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

I never understood the "bad placement" excuse. Aren't these divas paid to make catches? Who can't go out in the back yard and catch a ball behind them? Did bad ball placement affect Randy, Cris?

Come on, catch the F ball - youre getting paid millions.

If you'll excuse me now, I have to drive a bunch of high schoolers to a bb game at $20 an hour


How about when your ball placement puts you in harms way? Like when you have open field in front of you and a DB closing in fast behind and the ball thrown closer to the DB than the WR?

Or when you hang your guy out to dry by throwing the ball a couple feet too high and you leave your guy totally exposed to a huge hit?

How 'bout it? Everything's gotta be just perfect for success in this game of football?

Not too many people give excuses to a QB but there's plenty of it going around for WRs and mult others on the team - especially if your a Viking fan


Do you blame the catcher when a pitcher throws Ball 4 well out of the zone?

Accuracy is really important! No one ever said anything about being perfect. But there is a world of difference between a ball that the target has to stop and adjust to so the play ends on the catch and a ball that leads a receiver allowing for huge yards after the catch.

If a QB throws a pick 6 on a sideline route because he misplaced the ball by a foot, its not the receivers fault.

And back to your example, anyone can adjust to a ball in the backyard where there is no pressure and no one looking to take your head off. But in actual games, there are guys who excel at catching contested balls (Jefferson, Thielen, Diggs) and guys who really struggle with it (Addison, Osbourn).

Cousins has gotten a lot of praise here for his accuracy. Its other areas he comes up short.

I really don't blame anyone for anything. Stuff happens. I just think the poor guy didn't get a whole lot of help - and I was rooting way too hard for him.

But ball 4 and a receiver not catching a ball that isn't where the viewers want it to be are worlds apart, imo. For some of these plays it's like the catcher missed ball 4 and it wasn't even in the dirt.
Post #: 5915
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 5:35:54 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

But ball 4 and a receiver not catching a ball that isn't where the viewers want it to be are worlds apart, imo. For some of these plays it's like the catcher missed ball 4 and it wasn't even in the dirt.


You think its just the viewers?

Its much more the players and coaches.

Or do you think only the viewers were upset when Dobbs got JJ hurt?
Post #: 5916
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 6:29:56 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

So.. what a veteran QB is saying is Dobbs wasn’t help out by all the drops..

Maybe his throws are to forced and bad placement..

If he hung JJ out to dry…

I want Hall to get snaps.. we are chasing mediocrity with Mullet ..

We need to see if there is anything KOC can do to generate offensive production consistently.

I suppose Mullet is our best roster option, but I don’t like it.. chasing mediocrity..

Cousins was 4-4. The backups are 3-2, without Jefferson.

And when when we win the turnover battle what is O'Connell's record?
Post #: 5917
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 6:31:23 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

But ball 4 and a receiver not catching a ball that isn't where the viewers want it to be are worlds apart, imo. For some of these plays it's like the catcher missed ball 4 and it wasn't even in the dirt.


You think its just the viewers?

Its much more the players and coaches.

Or do you think only the viewers were upset when Dobbs got JJ hurt?

Dobbs got JJ hurt?
Post #: 5918
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 6:49:01 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

But ball 4 and a receiver not catching a ball that isn't where the viewers want it to be are worlds apart, imo. For some of these plays it's like the catcher missed ball 4 and it wasn't even in the dirt.


You think its just the viewers?

Its much more the players and coaches.

Or do you think only the viewers were upset when Dobbs got JJ hurt?

Dobbs got JJ hurt?


Yes.

He threw the ball way too high, forcing JJ to overextend himself, leaving him wide open to a big hit with no way to protect himself.

Its the very definition of "hanging your receiver out to dry" or a "hospital ball".

He did it to Osboorn against the Falcons too.
Post #: 5919
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 6:56:57 PM   
marty


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Flores name can be rearranged to

loser F ....


Ok DrVike, so based on that methodology, I think Jeron Hall should probably be the starting QB:

Hua Do Slab Jobs (Joshua Dobbs)
U Sick No Sir K (Kirk Cousins)
Luck Slim en (Nick Mullens)
J All Hero n (Jeron Hall)

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Post #: 5920
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 7:08:03 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hot takes while connecting in Denver: I have no problem who they start at qb for any game going forward - including Dobbs. Dude played poorly yesterday but not as poorly as it seemed. He outperformed every O lineman and every pass catcher not named Jefferson.

Mattison continues to be the adequate running back we expected. I’m still puzzled by the hate he gets from fans.

It’s too early to judge Kevin O’Connell. I won’t make a judgement on him until he gets a quality qb of his choosing or until he completes five years.

If Flores says ‘make me head coach or I walk’ I’d have to really think it over and wouldn’t be afraid to say ok or sorry.

Lots of twitter folks asking if anyone misses Kirk cousins now. I guess yesterday’s game was kind of the Super Bowl for Kirk fans (they lose again btw). I don’t miss him. We continue to get the same results with him or without him. I don’t care if he gets yards or TDs more efficiently. I don’t cheer for stats. I cheer for the chance to reach the Super Bowl. If I were a Kirk fan I’d be careful about promising the team would be so much better with him when we get better results without him and he’s replaced with a pile of below-average nobodies.

I look forward to taking a chance on a rookie qb with the possibility of being a quality player on a cheap deal with skills for the modern game. I’ll like it even better if that player is perceived by fans and media as being an awesome Christian and excellent family man. I hope the new guy’s wife buys his clothes for him at Kohls. Why? Because I know MN fans and media eat that shit up and I want the new guy to feel appreciated and at home. Just don’t be a check down coward that just works here.



What are you trying to justify David? Your First, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences seem to somehow deflect that your philosphy of any QB coming in and scoring more than 20 points was wrong?

Most are at best 50% that Kirk should be back....

How about you just say you are wrong in what you thought.....it isn't easy getting a qb that can throw for 16 TDS in 6.75 games is it? There just aren't that many decent QBs; even as a backup.


I’m not, and never have, trying to lump our backups into the good pile. I am, and have been, lumping cousins into the not-great pile.

More hot takes: I’d like to sell you a car. I have four available for sale. All four of them get you to the same place which is not near where you want to go. One of them has nice paint. The nice paint one costs 30x what the other three do. Will that be cash or finance? Of course it will be finance. We’ll stick a bunch of the cost into a year in which you don’t even own it anymore.

Edit - P.S. Hang the 16 TDs in 6.75 games banner! Hang it next to the “AD got a whole bunch of yards” banner. All I wanted was a ‘clock the ball and beat the chargers” banner.


If the question is whether the team should bring back Cousins next year the answer should be "no". Is he better than the other QB's currently on the roster? Yes. But, David's point is a valid one. Cousins joined the team in 2018. Despite playing under multiple different offensive coordinators and completely different rosters over the years he's been unable to get the team to an NFC Championship game let alone a Super Bowl. Is he a "good" QB? Yes. But, history shows that being "good" is his ceiling. To expand on the car analogy, he doesn't have the next gear to carry a team to a Super Bowl win.

There are times when a sports franchise has to take a step backward before it can take a leap forward. The problem that I've seen with the Vikings is this desire to "compete" every year. If competing means challenging for the Super Bowl, then I'm all in. If it means just making the playoffs, then that isn't a big accomplishment given that a total of 14 teams or about 44% of the NFL gets into the playoffs. What bothered me about Kwesi's "competitive rebuild" is that it seems to be about "making the playoffs" which really isn't that big of a deal anymore. I prefer a GM that looks at the big picture from Day 1 with the understanding that every single draft pick, every trade, every free agency acquisition and coaching hire is done with one goal in mind...does it move the needle toward winning the Super Bowl? With that in mind, don't resign Cousins because history shows he can not bring this team to the Super Bowl. Cut Mullens after this season. He's a nobody that never was or will be. Bring in the very best QB's that you can get your hands on until you land the QB that has that higher gear that quarterbacks like Cousins simply will never have.


Great post Mark!

Pretty much sums up how I feel, especially the bolded.

I believe the Wilf's were the one's that demanded the "competitive rebuild". In fact, they had to interview more than a couple GM's to find one that would take the job under that mantra. One (Poles) turned the job down.

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Post #: 5921
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 7:14:15 PM   
Phil Riewer


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From: MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

So.. what a veteran QB is saying is Dobbs wasn’t help out by all the drops..

Maybe his throws are to forced and bad placement..

If he hung JJ out to dry…

I want Hall to get snaps.. we are chasing mediocrity with Mullet ..

We need to see if there is anything KOC can do to generate offensive production consistently.

I suppose Mullet is our best roster option, but I don’t like it.. chasing mediocrity..

Cousins was 4-4. The backups are 3-2, without Jefferson.

What was the defense ranked early in the year versus now?

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Post #: 5922
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 7:16:42 PM   
Phil Riewer


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From: MN
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Fitz mentioned a not mentioned fact. Flores almost wrecked Tua.

Flores being a great DC doesn’t make him qb/offense friendly. Look at Zimmer.

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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 5923
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 7:33:03 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Fitz mentioned a not mentioned fact. Flores almost wrecked Tua.

Flores being a great DC doesn’t make him qb/offense friendly. Look at Zimmer.


It was mentioned here quite a bit on Monday.
Post #: 5924
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/13/2023 7:34:05 PM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

So.. what a veteran QB is saying is Dobbs wasn’t help out by all the drops..

Maybe his throws are to forced and bad placement..

If he hung JJ out to dry…

I want Hall to get snaps.. we are chasing mediocrity with Mullet ..

We need to see if there is anything KOC can do to generate offensive production consistently.

I suppose Mullet is our best roster option, but I don’t like it.. chasing mediocrity..

Cousins was 4-4. The backups are 3-2, without Jefferson.

What was the defense ranked early in the year versus now?


If it all hinges on the defense then what does it matter who the QB is?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 5925
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