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RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/17/2023 12:57:32 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Kirk appears to be a nice man and a good husband and father. It's also an edited program showing us the tiniest of slivers of his personal life. I know dozens of men that also appear to be nice men and good husbands and fathers. Hooray for all the nice men in the world.

Why thank you!

Post #: 626

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/17/2023 1:00:36 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

You really do have some curmudgeon characteristics, you know that, right? ;)

< Message edited by Ricky J -- 7/17/2023 9:35:12 PM >

Post #: 627

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/18/2023 11:26:26 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28600
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

Post #: 628

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/18/2023 7:54:08 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77903
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

The NFL Running Back Problem: Enormous Physical Toll Just To Be Disposed

The history of running backs on second contracts is bleak and something we’ve covered before. As of October 2022, 17 running backs signed second contracts since 2016 worth at least 4% of the cap at the year of signing. Only two of them produced more yards per game after signing that contract than before, and only four produced similar value to their precontract production for the teams that signed them.

Those four, incidentally, were Dalvin Cook, Alvin Kamara, Derrick Henry, and Nick Chubb. Cook is no longer with the Vikings, and Kamara has disappointed over the last two years.

Simply put, it does not make sense from a management perspective for teams to offer long-term contracts to running backs. Teams have an incentive to maximize wins, and they have an artificial constraint on the number of dollars they can spend. Given what their goals are, any money spent on a running back could be better spent on another position.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-running-back-problem-2023/

Post #: 629

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 2:38:26 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Throw darts. Then throw more darts. I’m not going to live forever and I’m tired of kissing my sister.

Throwing darts blindfolded is not the way to get it done. Sure you might win a Super Bowl once every hundred years that way. I'll put my support behind slow and steady improvement. Maybe we have the coach we need in KOC and the QB we need in KC already.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 630

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 2:39:53 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Throw darts. Then throw more darts. I’m not going to live forever and I’m tired of kissing my sister.

You might only live one more year, maybe two. You may be best served to go with the date you currently have

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 631

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 6:18:25 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9557
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

let's see what brian flores can do with this group...i see 80% of the d's failure last season as donatell....

zimmer played 'prevent' at the end of halves his last two seasons - that was one of his main failures....

i'm starting to believe that osborn will start the season as wr#2 and addison at wr#3 - I also have confidence in nailor - I like what I've seen in him....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 632

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 6:37:35 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9557
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

.
.
i don't think we give jefferson or hockenson a new contract this summer...we will extend hunter this season....

one very important aspect of these three players is to retain the right to trade them...we very well could need all that draft capital to start a rebuild by drafting a QB next season....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 633

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 8:05:36 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
i don't think we give jefferson or hockenson a new contract this summer...we will extend hunter this season....

one very important aspect of these three players is to retain the right to trade them...we very well could need all that draft capital to start a rebuild by drafting a QB next season....

I was wondering why kwesi hasn't extended Hock or JJ because their market value will probably go up by next off season. But you raise a good point. QB is the most important piece and it will take draft capital to aquire a good one.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 634

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 9:20:52 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
i don't think we give jefferson or hockenson a new contract this summer...we will extend hunter this season....

one very important aspect of these three players is to retain the right to trade them...we very well could need all that draft capital to start a rebuild by drafting a QB next season....

I was wondering why kwesi hasn't extended Hock or JJ because their market value will probably go up by next off season. But you raise a good point. QB is the most important piece and it will take draft capital to aquire a good one.

With the addition of the gambling money and the continued ridiculous popularity of the NFL, GMs are counting on large increases to the available salary cap in the upcoming years. They seem to have no fear whatsoever in regard to pushing chunks of money into future years, including the practice of NOT locking in restructures early.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 635

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 9:22:19 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Throw darts. Then throw more darts. I’m not going to live forever and I’m tired of kissing my sister.

Throwing darts blindfolded is not the way to get it done. Sure you might win a Super Bowl once every hundred years that way. I'll put my support behind slow and steady improvement. Maybe we have the coach we need in KOC and the QB we need in KC already.

Blindfolded? You realize that every QB in the league was once a draft prospect right? Even Kirk.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 636

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 9:27:27 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

The NFL Running Back Problem: Enormous Physical Toll Just To Be Disposed

The history of running backs on second contracts is bleak and something we’ve covered before. As of October 2022, 17 running backs signed second contracts since 2016 worth at least 4% of the cap at the year of signing. Only two of them produced more yards per game after signing that contract than before, and only four produced similar value to their precontract production for the teams that signed them.

Those four, incidentally, were Dalvin Cook, Alvin Kamara, Derrick Henry, and Nick Chubb. Cook is no longer with the Vikings, and Kamara has disappointed over the last two years.

Simply put, it does not make sense from a management perspective for teams to offer long-term contracts to running backs. Teams have an incentive to maximize wins, and they have an artificial constraint on the number of dollars they can spend. Given what their goals are, any money spent on a running back could be better spent on another position.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-running-back-problem-2023/

Available free agent running backs right now:

Zeke Elliot
Dalvin Cook
Leonard Fournette
Kareem Hunt
J.D. McKissic
Mark Ingram
Rex Burkhead

And if a GM is thinking about signing a RB for more than one season, here's some RBs that are scheduled to be free agents at the end of 2023:

Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs
Tony Pollard
Saquon Barkley
Austin Ekeler
Cordarrelle Patterson
Jonathan Taylor
D'andre Swift
JK Dobbins
And possibly every guy that's a free agent right now

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 637

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 9:50:56 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

let's see what brian flores can do with this group...i see 80% of the d's failure last season as donatell....

zimmer played 'prevent' at the end of halves his last two seasons - that was one of his main failures....

i'm starting to believe that osborn will start the season as wr#2 and addison at wr#3 - I also have confidence in nailor - I like what I've seen in him....

The defensive coaching has been bad for what, 3-4 years? 2018-2019 were statistically good defenses but Zimmer’s knuclebrained decisions, defensive softening, and talent bleed-off had already begun.

A lot of the ‘bad coaching’ was a DC scrambling to compensate for, hide, cover up weaknesses in talent/performance. A lot of it was just bad coaching. It’s a chicken/egg thing. Spielman and Kwesi have doomed the defense as much as the coaching.

It’s anybody’s guess if Flores can do more with less, because until proven otherwise, the defense is worse on paper or at least no better from a talent standpoint, than last year’s really bad defense. (I think we will be much better based on the overall indefinable gestalt of the thing … the individual pieces IMO don’t offer that projection)

Post #: 638

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 9:59:35 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

let's see what brian flores can do with this group...i see 80% of the d's failure last season as donatell....

zimmer played 'prevent' at the end of halves his last two seasons - that was one of his main failures....

i'm starting to believe that osborn will start the season as wr#2 and addison at wr#3 - I also have confidence in nailor - I like what I've seen in him....

The defensive coaching has been bad for what, 3-4 years? 2018-2019 were statistically good defenses but Zimmer’s knuclebrained decisions, defensive softening, and talent bleed-off had already begun.

A lot of the ‘bad coaching’ was a DC scrambling to compensate for, hide, cover up weaknesses in talent/performance. A lot of it was just bad coaching. It’s a chicken/egg thing. Spielman and Kwesi have doomed the defense as much as the coaching.

It’s anybody’s guess if Flores can do more with less, because until proven otherwise, the defense is worse on paper or at least no better from a talent standpoint, than last year’s really bad defense. (I think we will be much better based on the overall indefinable gestalt of the thing … the individual pieces IMO don’t offer that projection)

One thing that gives me hope for the defense in 2023 is that in 2022 the Vikings were ranked 11th best in points allowed in the 4th quarter. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opp-4th-quarter-points-per-game I interpret this as once the game was on the line and there was finally some urgency in the strategy, the defense was finally being called correctly. I'm optimistic to see what the defense can accomplish if the coaches BEGIN the game with some urgency and take a few risks.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 639

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 10:29:36 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28600
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

let's see what brian flores can do with this group...i see 80% of the d's failure last season as donatell....

zimmer played 'prevent' at the end of halves his last two seasons - that was one of his main failures....

i'm starting to believe that osborn will start the season as wr#2 and addison at wr#3 - I also have confidence in nailor - I like what I've seen in him....

Guess in addition to saying there isn't a single area that inspires confidence, there isn't even a single player that offensive coordinators will worry about. Hunter as a 4-3 DE would be, but he is miscast.

Flores will have to be a miracle worker, and the D will need a lot of lucky bounces at the right time.

The larger point is, based on the D, this is the time to acquire assets (draft picks, salary cap, etc). Kwesi cleaned much of the house on D this year, but that is still just the first easy step.

Also Cine, Booth, Ingram, Addison, and Blackmon need to produce.

Post #: 640

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 11:09:07 AM

marty

Posts: 13047
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

I didn't realize last year's Vikings'defense was ranked #11 in points against.

That is how I rank defenses, not by yardage given up.

That defense was better than I thought, and no small part of the reason for the 4th quarter comebacks.

PP was a great film nut, Zed and Hunter brought heat, Smith was solid, and various others contributed.

I think there is a chance the defense is much better, but PPs film study will be missed, as well as some of the heat Zed brought .

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 641

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 11:19:21 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I didn't realize last year's Vikings'defense was ranked #11 in points against.

That is how I rank defenses, not by yardage given up.

That defense was better than I thought, and no small part of the reason for the 4th quarter comebacks.

PP was a great film nut, Zed and Hunter brought heat, Smith was solid, and various others contributed.

I think there is a chance the defense is much better, but PPs film study will be missed, as well as some of the heat Zed brought .

In the 4th quarter.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 642

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 11:23:34 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I didn't realize last year's Vikings'defense was ranked #11 in points against.

That is how I rank defenses, not by yardage given up.

That defense was better than I thought, and no small part of the reason for the 4th quarter comebacks.

PP was a great film nut, Zed and Hunter brought heat, Smith was solid, and various others contributed.

I think there is a chance the defense is much better, but PPs film study will be missed, as well as some of the heat Zed brought .

That was in the 4th Quarter Marty.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 643

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 11:47:00 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I think we should have rolled the dice and took Levis.

Cousin's isn't leading us to anything. We are also way outclassed in the trenches to be even mentioned as a contender.

And look at the defense. Can't find a single area that inspires confidence.

Phillips - Tonga - Lowry

Hunter - Asamoah - Hicks - Davenport

Murphy - Booth? - Evans? - Blackmon?

Smith - Bynum (Cine?)

let's see what brian flores can do with this group...i see 80% of the d's failure last season as donatell....

zimmer played 'prevent' at the end of halves his last two seasons - that was one of his main failures....

i'm starting to believe that osborn will start the season as wr#2 and addison at wr#3 - I also have confidence in nailor - I like what I've seen in him....

The defensive coaching has been bad for what, 3-4 years? 2018-2019 were statistically good defenses but Zimmer’s knuclebrained decisions, defensive softening, and talent bleed-off had already begun.

A lot of the ‘bad coaching’ was a DC scrambling to compensate for, hide, cover up weaknesses in talent/performance. A lot of it was just bad coaching. It’s a chicken/egg thing. Spielman and Kwesi have doomed the defense as much as the coaching.

It’s anybody’s guess if Flores can do more with less, because until proven otherwise, the defense is worse on paper or at least no better from a talent standpoint, than last year’s really bad defense. (I think we will be much better based on the overall indefinable gestalt of the thing … the individual pieces IMO don’t offer that projection)

One thing that gives me hope for the defense in 2023 is that in 2022 the Vikings were ranked 11th best in points allowed in the 4th quarter. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opp-4th-quarter-points-per-game I interpret this as once the game was on the line and there was finally some urgency in the strategy, the defense was finally being called correctly. I'm optimistic to see what the defense can accomplish if the coaches BEGIN the game with some urgency and take a few risks.

I think our 4th quarters last season are hard to articulate statistically. 4th quarters were almost mini games different from the other three quarters.

Not sure its true but it seemed like our offense was in scramble / hit the gas mode a lot more than the opposing team which was in keep away / protect mode (padding our def stats).

Nobody has ever dug themselves out of so many holes in one season than the 2022 Vikings. Which is a beautiful thing. But those holes have to be dug first – the defense was clearly the main culprit ... the offense also limped along plenty in between volcanic eruptions.

We also had some big defensive stands and turnovers at the end of games after looking pitiful for three and half quarters.

Hard to draw conclusions but the defensive eyeball test was no bueno.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 7/19/2023 11:50:04 AM >

Post #: 644

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 11:54:25 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I didn't realize last year's Vikings'defense was ranked #11 in points against.

That is how I rank defenses, not by yardage given up.

That defense was better than I thought, and no small part of the reason for the 4th quarter comebacks.

PP was a great film nut, Zed and Hunter brought heat, Smith was solid, and various others contributed.

I think there is a chance the defense is much better, but PPs film study will be missed, as well as some of the heat Zed brought .

Don't forget about PPs time in the hybaric chamber and his senior discount at Kroger's grocery stores.

Flores has a lot of obstacles to overcome.

Post #: 645

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 12:16:14 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Spielman and Kwesi have doomed the defense as much as the coaching.

Spot on. Both regimes have failed miserably drafting CB's (high picks too) and have completely neglected the dline. SF and Phil (class of the NFC) address the trenches early and often every year in the draft. Meanwhile we haven't spent an early pick on the dline in over a decade (Sharif Floyd 2012). Both regimes seem way more interested in the "sexy" pick vs building the team from the inside out.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 646

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 1:28:48 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19458
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

Nobody has ever dug themselves out of so many holes in one season than the 2022 Vikings. Which is a beautiful thing. But those holes have to be dug first – the defense was clearly the main culprit ... the offense also limped along plenty in between volcanic eruptions.

Purple Daily did the research and I listened to the podcast a couple days ago so forgive me if my memory is off. If I'm wrong, i'm not making it up and it should be pretty accurate. They said we were 8th in first quarter offense and 1st in the fourth. Our second and third though were mid 20's.

Their conclusion based on quotes from the QB doc from Cousins and KOC:

1. He is very good at scripted plays
2. When it goes off script he's crap and balls up so he 'doesn't cost the team'
3. When he's down in the 4th he has to say 'screw it' and finally loosens up

Post #: 647

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 1:45:58 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Based on a lot of things said here today, a lot of good things, a "little bit" of coaching could fix a lot of issues.

Post #: 648

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 1:55:05 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28600
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Nobody has ever dug themselves out of so many holes in one season than the 2022 Vikings. Which is a beautiful thing. But those holes have to be dug first – the defense was clearly the main culprit ... the offense also limped along plenty in between volcanic eruptions.

Purple Daily did the research and I listened to the podcast a couple days ago so forgive me if my memory is off. If I'm wrong, i'm not making it up and it should be pretty accurate. They said we were 8th in first quarter offense and 1st in the fourth. Our second and third though were mid 20's.

Their conclusion based on quotes from the QB doc from Cousins and KOC:

1. He is very good at scripted plays
2. When it goes off script he's crap and balls up so he 'doesn't cost the team'
3. When he's down in the 4th he has to say 'screw it' and finally loosens up

Offensively, the 3rd quarter scoring was bad. We ended up 22nd, but for much of the season we were horrid.

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/news/the-2022-minnesota-vikings-have-a-third-quarter-problem

Week 1 vs. GB: Up 17 at halftime, lost third quarter 7-3
Week 2 at PHI: Down 17 at halftime, tied third quarter 0-0
Week 3 vs. DET: Tied at halftime, lost third quarter 10-0
Week 4 at NO: Up 6 at halftime, lost third quarter 7-3
Week 5 vs. CHI: Up 11 at halftime, lost third quarter 9-0
Week 6 at MIA: Up 7 at halftime, tied third quarter 0-0
Week 8 vs. ARI: Up 4 at halftime, won third quarter 14-13
Week 9 at WAS: Up 4 at halftime, lost third quarter 7-0

Excluding ARI, that's six points in eight games.

Post #: 649

RE: General Vikes Talk - 7/19/2023 2:40:48 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

2 TD passes, 13 sacks, and a 77.2 passer rating in the 3rd quarter last season. No killer instinct. Just “doesn’t want to screw up”.

https://www.nfl.com/players/kirk-cousins/stats/situational/

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 650