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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 5:18:52 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28105
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AS THE NFL draft spun through its three-day cycle this spring, Ivan Pace Jr.'s phone never rang. Through seven rounds and 259 selections in Kansas City, Missouri, all 32 teams passed on the linebacker out of Cincinnati.

He said it was "heartbreaking" not to be drafted, but at the end of the draft, it might have left Pace in a more advantageous spot.

Pace was in position to be a priority undrafted free agent. In years past, that might have meant a small signing bonus or having his pick of the best potential paths to a 53-man roster spot. But in the past handful of seasons, it's also meant something else.

The way some NFL teams create UDFA contracts has evolved from strictly using a capped-out signing bonus to offering some guaranteed money on the base salaries of contracts, which is another way to lure a player to their squad.

Not every UDFA gets this type of offer, and for some, it isn't as lucrative. But for Pace, it worked out. He signed with the Minnesota Vikings with a $216,000 base salary guarantee and a $20,000 signing bonus, according to Roster Management System.

It's an example of the new way teams operate. And in a league where typically close to a third of the players start as undrafted free agents, a shift in how those players are acquired can be significant.

In 2020, NFL teams spent $8,787,100 on base salary guarantees for UDFAs. In 2021, teams spent $7.175 million. Then in 2022, the number more than doubled to $14,902,500. Four teams spent more than $1 million on base salary guarantees for UDFAs in 2022 -- the Dallas Cowboys, Jacksonville Jaguars, New Orleans Saints and Philadelphia Eagles, according to documents provided by Roster Management System.

In that three-year span, only four teams did not give any money in base salary guarantees: the Pittsburgh Steelers, Seattle Seahawks, Cincinnati Bengals and Los Angeles Rams.

"It's factually a huge, major distribution of talent," said one longtime NFL agent who spoke with ESPN on the condition of anonymity. "So all 32 teams are not on a level playing field. So the teams that are doing it are putting themselves in such an advantageous position to acquire talent."

This trend can leave top undrafted players better off than their peers taken in the later rounds. While often the only guaranteed money offered to late-round picks is a signing bonus, which is slotted by the collective bargaining agreement, there is no limit to what teams can offer UDFAs in base salary guarantees. There is also the upside of getting a say in where you play.

This creates a competition point, said one NFL front office executive who spoke with ESPN on the condition of anonymity. The hours after the draft can become a bidding war for priority UDFAs, driving up guarantees.

Pace said his fit with the Vikings -- he spoke with defensive coordinator Brian Flores during the quick-decision undrafted period -- played the largest factor in where he ended up signing. But he was aware of the financial stake.

"That played a role in what team I was going to go to, too," Pace said. "I talked to my agent, and the Vikings came out to be the best fit for me, playingwise and moneywise."



AS ATLANTA FALCONS general manager Terry Fontenot watched players go in the 2023 NFL draft, he and his staff updated their front and back boards.

Fontenot's front board is for players he believes will get drafted, while the back board is for those he thinks might not. His team has heavily scouted players on both boards. Once the draft is over, undrafted free agency begins.

After April's draft, New York Giants general manager Joe Schoen called undrafted free agency "the second draft."

"The scouts and the coaches do a really good job, so they're grinding film on a lot of these guys you don't expect to get drafted," Fontenot said on Day 3 of this year's draft. "Some of them go. Some of them don't. We already have a good feel for it. Once we get through the front board meetings, that's what the coaches and scouts are grinding on these guys, just back-to-back, watching all these players that you don't expect to go, for whatever reason."

Jacksonville, in some ways, took a different strategy this year, loading up on late-round picks. Whether by design or happenstance, general manager Trent Baalke recognized the changes taking place in the undrafted cycle.

"That landscape has changed," Baalke said after April's draft. "So we're out there, these seventh-round picks are getting less money than the college free agents are getting right now in terms of guaranteed dollars and everything else.

"So when you have 13 picks, it allows you to draft some of those guys that you would normally be fighting for in college free agency."

Every team operates differently -- some choose not to give guarantees and others are willing to open their checkbooks much wider.

It's a calculated bet, the NFL front office executive told ESPN. The higher the guarantee, the greater the belief the player will be, at worst, on a practice squad somewhere in the NFL.

Because while hundreds of thousands of dollars in guaranteed money sounds great, and is a good backstop for a player, it's not exactly what it appears. If a player has a base salary guarantee of $216,000 or less -- the amount guaranteed to practice squad players in 2023 -- and spends the entire season on a practice squad, he essentially gets the same money he would have without the guarantee.

The guaranteed salary figures are eclipsed if the player gets called up, due to the NFL minimum salary weekly NFL check of $41,667.

"You're making a real commitment to a player who just wasn't drafted," said Mike Tannenbaum, ESPN's NFL front office insider and the general manager of the New York Jets from 2006 to 2012. "It's real money. It's basically, unless a player is just an egregious flop on the field, they are going to be on your practice squad at a minimum.

"Like, you're taking some of the, 'Hey, free agents have to prove it,' you're taking part of that narrative really off the table."

And even if that player is cut, if another club picks him up at any point -- to the 53-man roster or the practice squad -- the contract transfers to the new team for as long as the player is with his new team.

"Conceivably, these guys can make your roster," the NFL agent said. "So if they make your practice squad, or at worst, make someone else's practice squad.

"So really, up to 217 [thousand dollars] is Monopoly money."


Minnesota's Andre Carter II received the highest base salary guarantee for an undrafted free agent this offseason at $300,000. Trevor Ruszkowski/USA TODAY Sports

IT'S NOT CLEAR if one moment created the movement toward UDFA base salary guarantees. It evolved because of the rules in the CBA, multiple sources who spoke with ESPN on the condition of anonymity said.

The CBA has a cap on the amount of signing bonuses a team can give out to UDFAs -- in 2021, it was a combined $160,000 -- and it grows each year. In 2023, the signing bonus cap per team is $172,337, per Roster Management System.

But there is no cap on how much base salary money a team can guarantee a UDFA.

Pace's Minnesota teammate, Andre Carter II, received the highest base salary guarantee for an undrafted free agent this offseason: $300,000. Seventy-one undrafted free agents received six-figure base salary guarantees this year, according to Roster Management System, and 12 have guarantees of $216,000 or more -- the equivalent of a full year on the practice squad.

And there's evidence the guaranteed money could continue to escalate. In 2020, the highest UDFA base salary guarantee went to Jacksonville corner Luq Barcoo at $160,000. Barcoo made the Jaguars and played in three games. The next season, the highest guarantee went to Jets tight end Kenny Yeboah at $180,000 -- he played in 19 games for the Jets the past two seasons.

Last year, Philadelphia guaranteed quarterback Carson Strong $300,000. Cut out of camp, Strong spent one week on Arizona's practice squad and is now not on an NFL roster -- meaning the Eagles ate a lot of Strong's guarantee.

Another longtime NFL agent who asked for anonymity said he believes the league will eventually try to control the guarantees because the dollars keep escalating higher than what some draft picks receive.

For example, the only money guaranteed to running back DeWayne McBride, the Vikings' seventh-round pick, was a signing bonus of $110,404. Including signing bonuses, 64 undrafted players received more than McBride's bonus in guarantees.

While McBride will receive the money no matter what, the Vikings have actually given more guarantees to Carter and Pace. Unlike McBride, those players could also pick from the teams that offered them the most to create a more desirable pathway to a 53-man roster spot.

And on Tuesday, Carter and Pace were both named to the Vikings' 53-man roster, while McBride was cut.

The anonymous NFL front office executive likened it to Mr. Irrelevant -- Rams defensive tackle Desjuan Johnson -- getting a $77,784 signing bonus. Approximately 100 undrafted players, the executive said, had base salary guarantees higher than that.

"Psychologically, getting drafted, that has the prestige and the certainty of what you're going to get," Tannenbaum said. "But given some of these aggressive guarantees, you could make the argument that, 'You know what, maybe we're better off not getting drafted at all.'"
Post #: 6576
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:15:05 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Saw highlights of Penix... wow, what an arm.

Some players are just injury prone. Others like Robert Smith seem to take a while to get the injuries over with (an observation more than a proven thing).


2 torn ACLs in his right knee and season ending injuries to both shoulders.

He appears to be recovered from the throwing shoulder - no idea if it'll have any long-term effects.

You have to hope the ACLs are a fluke and not a sign that he's more prone to them.

Can he be that guy that is very mobile in the pocket to make up for not really using him as a running option?


Or like the eval alluded to, can he develop a pocket presence. An instinct. Just enough feet shuffling to stay out of danger. A lot of QBs never do. Tough one for the scouts to project, but that's their job.

I'm out on a young guy with multiple injury history. Take him in the late rounds, maybe. Not as a #1.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6577
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:22:35 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

The competitive rebuild was the wrong course of action and I was strongly in favor of a tear down. We did get to enjoy an entertaining yet hollow 13-4 season last year, all the while knowing we weren't good enough to win the SB with that team.

We've wasted 2 years of JJ and are further away from competing for a SB.

Not only are the cupboards pretty bare for next year, but we're paying a lot of dead cap.

We have maybe 5 guys under team control that other teams would covet and they are all on offense.

I love JJ, but we need to use that asset to kickstart the rebuild. Instead of paying him and Darrisaw big time extensions get some draft capital for them and anyone else that is tradeable. Tear it down to the studs and start by building quality OL and DL. I'm tired of being dominated in the trenches all the time.

Go 1-16 next year with Hall and Mullens as your QB and draft #1 overall in 2025. Get your QB and skill positions go from there, should have a bunch of FA money at that point too to fill in the gaps. You probably draft petty high again in 2026 as the new QB has some growing pains, but 2027 and beyond you should be very competitive if the GM and scouts did their jobs. (Hopefully not Queasy)

We are position to get a QBOTF this draft. Why wait?

Like Bill says, sit out FA and get dead cap in order.

By 2025, hopefully we have QBOTF and cap room.

Do you want the 3rd or 4th best QB on the board, because that's all you're getting in the 8-12 range that we're projected at. I'd rather wait a year and have the best guy that year. If you get the QB this year and still suck because the rest of the roster is bad, you not only run the risk of ruining your QBOTF, but you burn a year of his rookie scale contract for nothing.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6578
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:27:18 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

The competitive rebuild was the wrong course of action and I was strongly in favor of a tear down. We did get to enjoy an entertaining yet hollow 13-4 season last year, all the while knowing we weren't good enough to win the SB with that team.

We've wasted 2 years of JJ and are further away from competing for a SB.

Not only are the cupboards pretty bare for next year, but we're paying a lot of dead cap.

We have maybe 5 guys under team control that other teams would covet and they are all on offense.

I love JJ, but we need to use that asset to kickstart the rebuild. Instead of paying him and Darrisaw big time extensions get some draft capital for them and anyone else that is tradeable. Tear it down to the studs and start by building quality OL and DL. I'm tired of being dominated in the trenches all the time.

Go 1-16 next year with Hall and Mullens as your QB and draft #1 overall in 2025. Get your QB and skill positions go from there, should have a bunch of FA money at that point too to fill in the gaps. You probably draft petty high again in 2026 as the new QB has some growing pains, but 2027 and beyond you should be very competitive if the GM and scouts did their jobs. (Hopefully not Queasy)

Your plan only works if you have competent people on the other side of the teardown that can build something.

Waiting to pounce on a QB in two years is a very flawed pro football strategy. You dont wait to strike until your iron is hot, you make the iron hot by striking. i. e., it may take several attempts to get a QB worthy of leading this franchise. You dont just draft anybody but you dont just draft nobody either. gzuz.

Yesterday you spit on the idea of picking for need but your plan uses the purest form / the zenith of need picking - align all your resources and schedule your QB pick for 2 years down the road. Without knowing who’s available or what our draft position will be.

Your plan may fix the problem but more than likely it just prolongs the groundhog qb day we are going through.

I did qualify my statement by saying I hope Queasy isn't doing the picking.... Did you miss that.

This year if we're drafting 8-12 range we're getting the 3rd of 4th best QB on the board. If we follow my plan, we get #1 the following year. Are you saying there isn't a JR or SO QB out there who won't be better than the 4th best QB coming out this year. If that's true I might change my mind. BUT, the roster is not ready to win even if you plug in a decent rookie this year. IT JUST ISN'T. I'll fix some holes this year, take the beating we deserve and get it right the year after.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6579
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:28:17 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

bstinger for GM.

I’d love if they tore it all down. I’d support a 1 to 5 game winning team for a couple of years if it meant not accepting mediocrity and ultimately disappointment.

Thanks Todd, have your people get in touch with my people.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6580
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:34:29 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

Still lamenting that we beat Carolina early in the season. I just knew if we lost that game everything would fall into place.

KAM probably got the job because he sold the owners on a rebuild on the fly plan. The owners didn't want to hire anyone that said lets gut and rebuild the team which others were calling for.

It very much sounds like the WILF's are the reason we had to go down the competitive rebuild plan. They are more concerned with butts in the seats than actually winning a championship. However I'm not impressed at all with Queasy or KOC. The "culture" has gone down the tubes along with the record.

I've asked vikings.com a few times why they don't share post game speeches or Mic'd Up material after a loss. They only do it after a win. If the culture was so solid, why wouldn't they share both???? It's easy to have a strong culture when you luck your way to 13 wins. How was it Sunday? Looked to me like the guys started making business decisions instead of going all out for the team. If that's true, the culture is BROKEN.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6581
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 9:36:33 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16525
Joined: 7/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Not sure if true or not, but read somewhere that Kwesi presented a plan to the Wilfs to tear the team down or competitive rebuild, and they wanted the competitive rebuild.

But yeah, not blown away by Kwesi.

2 drafts, Has added a very good WR2 and a young LB (did he get lucky with Pace?). I guess you could say he's added some depth the the secondary, but that's about it
Have added no other impact defensive players. 1 outright bust in Cine, and what appears to be just a bunch of guys at CB. Evans, Booth, Blackmon. Evans has been downright awful. But giving him the benefit of the doubt we have "depth"

I guess his "success" is trading for Hockensen, and signing him. But I think there is also a legitimate argument that now is the time to draft young/cheap TEs. They seem to be all over the league these days. 10 years ago TE was a premium position, but college passing games have really developed the TE.

A questionable contract to Mattison in a time where RBs are devalued. Go young and cheap, questionable contract to a blocking TE in Oliver, Davenport was a joke
Hicks was fine, but nothing spectacular. We really just needed a LBer with some size.
If he let's Hunter go, without compensation, that's an eff up. They could have gotten a couple picks for him 2/3rd round to help with rebuild.

What concerns me most is 2 years in and we have a lot of question on the defense with lots of holes.
Who's our cornerstones of the future? Mettellus and Pace? That's pretty weak.
No 3 rd pick this year. If we go QB at 1, are we drafting any impact defensive players this year?

It'a an alarming situation for sure.

+1 QUEASY makes me sick.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6582
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/2/2024 11:07:43 PM   
timz

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 11/15/2007
Status: offline
My post from 1/25/22:

"While I must admit I have not followed the NFL real close lately so I know nothing about GM's around the league. So I have a real question that hopefully someone here can answer. Why would you hire as your new GM someone from the front office of a team as crappy as the Browns have been for quite some time now?"

And I got the hate. Guys are singing a different tune now.
Post #: 6583
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 1:22:08 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13742
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Saw highlights of Penix... wow, what an arm.

Some players are just injury prone. Others like Robert Smith seem to take a while to get the injuries over with (an observation more than a proven thing).


2 torn ACLs in his right knee and season ending injuries to both shoulders.

He appears to be recovered from the throwing shoulder - no idea if it'll have any long-term effects.

You have to hope the ACLs are a fluke and not a sign that he's more prone to them.

Can he be that guy that is very mobile in the pocket to make up for not really using him as a running option?


Or like the eval alluded to, can he develop a pocket presence. An instinct. Just enough feet shuffling to stay out of danger. A lot of QBs never do. Tough one for the scouts to project, but that's their job.

I'm out on a young guy with multiple injury history. Take him in the late rounds, maybe. Not as a #1.


Not that young. He'll be 24 in his rookie season.
Post #: 6584
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 1:36:31 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13742
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

Still lamenting that we beat Carolina early in the season. I just knew if we lost that game everything would fall into place.

KAM probably got the job because he sold the owners on a rebuild on the fly plan. The owners didn't want to hire anyone that said lets gut and rebuild the team which others were calling for.

It very much sounds like the WILF's are the reason we had to go down the competitive rebuild plan. They are more concerned with butts in the seats than actually winning a championship. However I'm not impressed at all with Queasy or KOC. The "culture" has gone down the tubes along with the record.

I've asked vikings.com a few times why they don't share post game speeches or Mic'd Up material after a loss. They only do it after a win. If the culture was so solid, why wouldn't they share both???? It's easy to have a strong culture when you luck your way to 13 wins. How was it Sunday? Looked to me like the guys started making business decisions instead of going all out for the team. If that's true, the culture is BROKEN.


I'm not a fan of Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft, but they both are old and rich enough to know what they want. I have no doubt they want to win Super Bowls. Zygi is one of the poorest NFL owners. That poor bastard is barely a billionaire, how did he even get in the club? He's more interested in profits than championships, and he's too stupid to realize that a monkey could own a NFL team and still get a shit ton of bananas in return.

I would prefer the owner of my team to want to win at least as much as I do. He doesn't. I'm shocked he hasn't asked the fans to subsidize the new, non-slippery turf for the seven year old, billion dollar stadium.

< Message edited by JT2 -- 1/3/2024 1:44:09 AM >
Post #: 6585
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 6:13:26 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40145
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
Kwesi - why am I being fired?!

Kyle Hamilton: 143 tackles 5 sacks 4 INT 2 FF

Lewis Cine: 1 tackle
Post #: 6586
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 6:15:31 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40145
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Has to be a top 3 worst pick. Busts get picked all the time but not usually after passing on a stud that amazingly fell in your lap.
Post #: 6587
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 6:17:45 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40145
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

Still lamenting that we beat Carolina early in the season. I just knew if we lost that game everything would fall into place.

KAM probably got the job because he sold the owners on a rebuild on the fly plan. The owners didn't want to hire anyone that said lets gut and rebuild the team which others were calling for.

It very much sounds like the WILF's are the reason we had to go down the competitive rebuild plan. They are more concerned with butts in the seats than actually winning a championship. However I'm not impressed at all with Queasy or KOC. The "culture" has gone down the tubes along with the record.

I've asked vikings.com a few times why they don't share post game speeches or Mic'd Up material after a loss. They only do it after a win. If the culture was so solid, why wouldn't they share both???? It's easy to have a strong culture when you luck your way to 13 wins. How was it Sunday? Looked to me like the guys started making business decisions instead of going all out for the team. If that's true, the culture is BROKEN.


I'm not a fan of Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft, but they both are old and rich enough to know what they want. I have no doubt they want to win Super Bowls. Zygi is one of the poorest NFL owners. That poor bastard is barely a billionaire, how did he even get in the club? He's more interested in profits than championships, and he's too stupid to realize that a monkey could own a NFL team and still get a shit ton of bananas in return.

I would prefer the owner of my team to want to win at least as much as I do. He doesn't. I'm shocked he hasn't asked the fans to subsidize the new, non-slippery turf for the seven year old, billion dollar stadium.


Wouldn’t the Wilfs not making themselves available after the last loss indicate that they’re not pleased? I hear they always are available after a home game.
Post #: 6588
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 7:14:00 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40145
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
Expecting a decisive win playing Dobbs how he should have played all along that will count for nothing but lost draft stock.

This is the way.
Post #: 6589
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 7:35:51 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 44849
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Expecting a decisive win playing Dobbs how he should have played all along that will count for nothing but lost draft stock.

This is the way.

I don't see Dobbs leading the Vikings to a win. He got figured out in the middle of the NO game. He led the Vikings to 55 points in his first 5 quarters. Then it was 33 in his last 13 quarters, including 0 against the Bears.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6590
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 7:52:35 AM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

Posts: 19189
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

Still lamenting that we beat Carolina early in the season. I just knew if we lost that game everything would fall into place.

KAM probably got the job because he sold the owners on a rebuild on the fly plan. The owners didn't want to hire anyone that said lets gut and rebuild the team which others were calling for.

It very much sounds like the WILF's are the reason we had to go down the competitive rebuild plan. They are more concerned with butts in the seats than actually winning a championship. However I'm not impressed at all with Queasy or KOC. The "culture" has gone down the tubes along with the record.

I've asked vikings.com a few times why they don't share post game speeches or Mic'd Up material after a loss. They only do it after a win. If the culture was so solid, why wouldn't they share both???? It's easy to have a strong culture when you luck your way to 13 wins. How was it Sunday? Looked to me like the guys started making business decisions instead of going all out for the team. If that's true, the culture is BROKEN.


I'm not a fan of Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft, but they both are old and rich enough to know what they want. I have no doubt they want to win Super Bowls. Zygi is one of the poorest NFL owners. That poor bastard is barely a billionaire, how did he even get in the club? He's more interested in profits than championships, and he's too stupid to realize that a monkey could own a NFL team and still get a shit ton of bananas in return.

I would prefer the owner of my team to want to win at least as much as I do. He doesn't. I'm shocked he hasn't asked the fans to subsidize the new, non-slippery turf for the seven year old, billion dollar stadium.

I've said that over the past 10 years or so a lot. When I care more than the owner, coaches, and players it's a problem. Great post!
Post #: 6591
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 8:33:57 AM   
beo

 

Posts: 2289
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

The competitive rebuild was the wrong course of action and I was strongly in favor of a tear down. We did get to enjoy an entertaining yet hollow 13-4 season last year, all the while knowing we weren't good enough to win the SB with that team.

We've wasted 2 years of JJ and are further away from competing for a SB.

Not only are the cupboards pretty bare for next year, but we're paying a lot of dead cap.

We have maybe 5 guys under team control that other teams would covet and they are all on offense.

I love JJ, but we need to use that asset to kickstart the rebuild. Instead of paying him and Darrisaw big time extensions get some draft capital for them and anyone else that is tradeable. Tear it down to the studs and start by building quality OL and DL. I'm tired of being dominated in the trenches all the time.

Go 1-16 next year with Hall and Mullens as your QB and draft #1 overall in 2025. Get your QB and skill positions go from there, should have a bunch of FA money at that point too to fill in the gaps. You probably draft petty high again in 2026 as the new QB has some growing pains, but 2027 and beyond you should be very competitive if the GM and scouts did their jobs. (Hopefully not Queasy)

We are position to get a QBOTF this draft. Why wait?

Like Bill says, sit out FA and get dead cap in order.

By 2025, hopefully we have QBOTF and cap room.

Do you want the 3rd or 4th best QB on the board, because that's all you're getting in the 8-12 range that we're projected at. I'd rather wait a year and have the best guy that year. If you get the QB this year and still suck because the rest of the roster is bad, you not only run the risk of ruining your QBOTF, but you burn a year of his rookie scale contract for nothing.


You are making a couple of big assumptions:
1) You are assuming you can successfully tank to guarantee to get the "best" guy next year.
That could easily backfire... Vikes had the 3rd pick the year Andrew Luck came out... there was no QB available at 3.
2) You are assuming that 3rd/4th picked this year is WORSE than 1st guy picked next year. Mitch Tribisky was first guy picked at one point.
If this is a spectacular year of QBs (I don't know... but supposedly it is)... QBs this year might be better than next.

If there is a qb you like this year and he is available... you take him. IMO
Post #: 6592
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 8:38:51 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

Still lamenting that we beat Carolina early in the season. I just knew if we lost that game everything would fall into place.

KAM probably got the job because he sold the owners on a rebuild on the fly plan. The owners didn't want to hire anyone that said lets gut and rebuild the team which others were calling for.

It very much sounds like the WILF's are the reason we had to go down the competitive rebuild plan. They are more concerned with butts in the seats than actually winning a championship. However I'm not impressed at all with Queasy or KOC. The "culture" has gone down the tubes along with the record.

I've asked vikings.com a few times why they don't share post game speeches or Mic'd Up material after a loss. They only do it after a win. If the culture was so solid, why wouldn't they share both???? It's easy to have a strong culture when you luck your way to 13 wins. How was it Sunday? Looked to me like the guys started making business decisions instead of going all out for the team. If that's true, the culture is BROKEN.


I'm not a fan of Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft, but they both are old and rich enough to know what they want. I have no doubt they want to win Super Bowls. Zygi is one of the poorest NFL owners. That poor bastard is barely a billionaire, how did he even get in the club? He's more interested in profits than championships, and he's too stupid to realize that a monkey could own a NFL team and still get a shit ton of bananas in return.

I would prefer the owner of my team to want to win at least as much as I do. He doesn't. I'm shocked he hasn't asked the fans to subsidize the new, non-slippery turf for the seven year old, billion dollar stadium.


Not defending the Wilfs, but Carolina's owner was just fined $300K. A personal drop in the bucket as the article said his net worth is $20+ billion. The team has gone through several head coaches, etc in his brief tenure as owner. It's a mess.

Turns out, he made his fortune as a hedge run manager. Where is his football acumen? He's probably pining for Kwesi as his GM so they can compare notes on investing. Sports franchises are profitable play toys for many of his ilk.
Post #: 6593
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 8:39:18 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5819
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

The competitive rebuild was the wrong course of action and I was strongly in favor of a tear down. We did get to enjoy an entertaining yet hollow 13-4 season last year, all the while knowing we weren't good enough to win the SB with that team.

We've wasted 2 years of JJ and are further away from competing for a SB.

Not only are the cupboards pretty bare for next year, but we're paying a lot of dead cap.

We have maybe 5 guys under team control that other teams would covet and they are all on offense.

I love JJ, but we need to use that asset to kickstart the rebuild. Instead of paying him and Darrisaw big time extensions get some draft capital for them and anyone else that is tradeable. Tear it down to the studs and start by building quality OL and DL. I'm tired of being dominated in the trenches all the time.

Go 1-16 next year with Hall and Mullens as your QB and draft #1 overall in 2025. Get your QB and skill positions go from there, should have a bunch of FA money at that point too to fill in the gaps. You probably draft petty high again in 2026 as the new QB has some growing pains, but 2027 and beyond you should be very competitive if the GM and scouts did their jobs. (Hopefully not Queasy)

Your plan only works if you have competent people on the other side of the teardown that can build something.

Waiting to pounce on a QB in two years is a very flawed pro football strategy. You dont wait to strike until your iron is hot, you make the iron hot by striking. i. e., it may take several attempts to get a QB worthy of leading this franchise. You dont just draft anybody but you dont just draft nobody either. gzuz.

Yesterday you spit on the idea of picking for need but your plan uses the purest form / the zenith of need picking - align all your resources and schedule your QB pick for 2 years down the road. Without knowing who’s available or what our draft position will be.

Your plan may fix the problem but more than likely it just prolongs the groundhog qb day we are going through.

I did qualify my statement by saying I hope Queasy isn't doing the picking.... Did you miss that.

This year if we're drafting 8-12 range we're getting the 3rd of 4th best QB on the board. If we follow my plan, we get #1 the following year. Are you saying there isn't a JR or SO QB out there who won't be better than the 4th best QB coming out this year. If that's true I might change my mind. BUT, the roster is not ready to win even if you plug in a decent rookie this year. IT JUST ISN'T. I'll fix some holes this year, take the beating we deserve and get it right the year after.

Yes I missed that … you tossed it in at the end like an offhanded, ‘with or without Queasy but hopefully without.’

It’s still a plan to throw away a year and come back the following year assuming to be in a much better position for a prospect that you assume may be significantly better than what’s available this year … and drafted by either Queasy or some other Wilf hand-picked newbie that you assume will be better than Queasy.

I’m sure the rest of the North division will hold themselves back a year while our plan ripens and comes to a possible fruition.

No way.

Whatever else you do … IF there’s a solid prospect at your draft spot … and your QB room is bankrupt … you have to take him.

Not doing that this year is absolutely recklessly worse than waiting for ‘what may come’ next year and unmistakably worse than resigning Cousins Mullens for another year of very expensive doggie-paddling.

EDIT: posted this and saw BEO beat me to the punch in his post above. What he said.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 1/3/2024 8:42:54 AM >
Post #: 6594
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:01:03 AM   
Phil Riewer


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Trask hasn't got any run at TB and he was drafted realtively high.

I like what Tennessee and Cleveland did. Both had starters going into last year and Tenn drafted one in the third in 2022 and Levis in the 2nd in 2023. Cleveland had Baker and basically cut ties traded for Watson, drafted DTR, and lucked into Flacco......even though Cleveland was lucky with Flacco they have been proactive.

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Post #: 6595
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:17:45 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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If there is a qb you like this year and he is available... you take him.

Agreed. I think they'd draft one in the first three rounds anyway, even if just for appearance sake. And tanking isn't easy. As Kwesi said, "There’s an oblong ball. There’s variance in the sport."
Post #: 6596
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:20:09 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28105
Status: offline
Here is the brilliant one re-riffing on tearing it down:

"That literally was a riff on the very question (a reporter) asked me, I want to say on our second press conference about team-building in the NBA vs. the NFL," he said. "So that was just a general conversation about why this is such a different exercise than the NBA. In that sport, you kinda do want to tear it down because you want the No. 1 pick. And I said the only thing that makes you nervous in the NFL that people are kinda coming to is the position of quarterback. You know what I mean?"
Post #: 6597
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:21:37 AM   
Trekgeekscott


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On the QB issue.

This list shows that drafting a QB high gives you a better chance than not of getting a good one, but at the same time is a motherfucker of crapshoot.


2023 Bryce Young 1
CJ Stroud 2
Anthony Richardson 4
Will Levis 33
Hendon Hooker 68
Aidan O'Connell 135
2022 Kenny Pickett 20
Desmond Ridder 74
Malik Willis 86
Matt Corral 94
Bailey Zappe 137
Sam Howell 144
Brock Purdy 262
2021 Trevor Lawrence 1
Zach Wilson 2
Trey Lance 3
Justin Fields 11
Mac Jones 15
Kyle Trask 64
Kellen Mond 66
Davis Mills 67
Sam Ehlinger 218
2020 Joe Burrow 1
Tua Tagovailoa 5
Justin Herbert 6
Jordan Love 26
Jalen Hurts 53
2019 Kyler Murray 1
Daniel Jones 6
Dwayne Haskins 15
Drew Lock 42
Will Grier 100
Jarrett Stidham 133
Easton Stick 166
Gardner Minshew 178
2018 Baker Mayfield 1
Sam Darnold 3
Josh Allen 7
Josh Rosen 10
Lamar Jackson 32
Mason Rudolph 76
Mike White 171
2017 Mitchell Trubisky 2
Patrick Mahomes 10
Deshaun Watson 12
Joshua Dobbs 135
2016 Jared Goff 1
Carson Wentz 2
Paxton Lynch 26
Christian Hackenberg 51
Jacoby Brissett 91
Cody Kessler 93
Connor Cook 100
Dak Prescott 135
2015 Jameis Winston 1
Marcus Mariota 2
Garret Grayson 75
Sean Mannion 89
Brett Hundley 147
Trevor Siemian 250
2014 Blake Bortles 3
Johnny Manziel 22
Teddy Bridgewater 32
Derek Carr 36
Jimmy Garapolo 62
A J McCarron 164
2013 E J Manuel 16
Geno Smith 39
Mike Glennon 73
Matt Barkley 98

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Post #: 6598
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:29:13 AM   
Mark Anderson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

The competitive rebuild was the wrong course of action and I was strongly in favor of a tear down. We did get to enjoy an entertaining yet hollow 13-4 season last year, all the while knowing we weren't good enough to win the SB with that team.

We've wasted 2 years of JJ and are further away from competing for a SB.

Not only are the cupboards pretty bare for next year, but we're paying a lot of dead cap.

We have maybe 5 guys under team control that other teams would covet and they are all on offense.

I love JJ, but we need to use that asset to kickstart the rebuild. Instead of paying him and Darrisaw big time extensions get some draft capital for them and anyone else that is tradeable. Tear it down to the studs and start by building quality OL and DL. I'm tired of being dominated in the trenches all the time.

Go 1-16 next year with Hall and Mullens as your QB and draft #1 overall in 2025. Get your QB and skill positions go from there, should have a bunch of FA money at that point too to fill in the gaps. You probably draft petty high again in 2026 as the new QB has some growing pains, but 2027 and beyond you should be very competitive if the GM and scouts did their jobs. (Hopefully not Queasy)

We are position to get a QBOTF this draft. Why wait?

Like Bill says, sit out FA and get dead cap in order.

By 2025, hopefully we have QBOTF and cap room.

Do you want the 3rd or 4th best QB on the board, because that's all you're getting in the 8-12 range that we're projected at. I'd rather wait a year and have the best guy that year. If you get the QB this year and still suck because the rest of the roster is bad, you not only run the risk of ruining your QBOTF, but you burn a year of his rookie scale contract for nothing.


You are making a couple of big assumptions:
1) You are assuming you can successfully tank to guarantee to get the "best" guy next year.
That could easily backfire... Vikes had the 3rd pick the year Andrew Luck came out... there was no QB available at 3.
2) You are assuming that 3rd/4th picked this year is WORSE than 1st guy picked next year. Mitch Tribisky was first guy picked at one point.
If this is a spectacular year of QBs (I don't know... but supposedly it is)... QBs this year might be better than next.

If there is a qb you like this year and he is available... you take him. IMO

I looked at 2025 top QBs

Allar(Penn State)
Sanders(Colorado)
Ewers?? (Texas) Thought he was coming out.

I'll take my chances this year.

Plus, if you're are tanking to get to one or two wins. It will be obvious. JJ and anyone else who cares will want out. We would have to trade JJ.

It worked for Dallas once upon a time but they found a sucker to help them. And they had a great football mind in Jimmy Johnson.
Post #: 6599
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/3/2024 9:30:37 AM   
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson



It worked for Dallas once upon a time but they found a sucker to help them. And they had a great football mind in Jimmy Johnson.



Nobody is going to be suckered like that again.

Nobody.

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Post #: 6600
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