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RE: General Vikes Talk

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 11:11:26 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Kinda "funny" how both he and Sabin are calling it quits when they realize their "success meal tickets" are taken from them. The 2 "greatest football coaches ever"

Take Brady away from BB and all the recruiting advantages from NS and guess what? They fall back down to earth.

I'm not really a Saban fan.

But, did Alabama ever have a scandal or get put on probation? I actually give Saban more credit for winning when it is isn't the NIL and transfer portal circus we have now. He got players there because he had a proven track record of developing players for the pros. And also win a few National Championships while you are at it.


Same here, not a Saban fan but the excellence of the program cannot be ignored.
Post #: 6951
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 11:36:44 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19462
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Kinda "funny" how both he and Sabin are calling it quits when they realize their "success meal tickets" are taken from them. The 2 "greatest football coaches ever"

Take Brady away from BB and all the recruiting advantages from NS and guess what? They fall back down to earth.

I'm not really a Saban fan.

But, did Alabama ever have a scandal or get put on probation? I actually give Saban more credit for winning when it is isn't the NIL and transfer portal circus we have now. He got players there because he had a proven track record of developing players for the pros. And also win a few National Championships while you are at it.


Same here, not a Saban fan but the excellence of the program cannot be ignored.




My biggest beef with that is the absolute cupcake mid season schedule they would have. It was no coincidence. Hell, even the Gophers would beat those teams they routinely scheduled so they could get healthy. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't illegal. Some would even suggest it was genius.
Post #: 6952
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 12:53:16 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Without Bilichick Tom Brady is John David Booty.

Patriots dynasty would have still existed.

I agree with your opinion much more than those that say it's all Tom B. And my other opinion is that the inflated ball issue was a joke and shame on the NFL. Why not go after Rogers, too, then?
Post #: 6953
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 12:58:00 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Without Bilichick Tom Brady is John David Booty.

Patriots dynasty would have still existed.




With Brady Starting they were perennial favorites for the Superbowl. Went to 9 of them, won 6. Without Brady they've hardly made the playoffs.

It could be argued that both made the other better....but one went on to win a superbowl without the other and his name was Brady, not Belichick.

I disagree on Brady being John David Booty without Belichick

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”
Post #: 6954
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 12:59:43 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”
Post #: 6955
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 1:03:21 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Kinda "funny" how both he and Sabin are calling it quits when they realize their "success meal tickets" are taken from them. The 2 "greatest football coaches ever"

Take Brady away from BB and all the recruiting advantages from NS and guess what? They fall back down to earth.

I'm not really a Saban fan.

But, did Alabama ever have a scandal or get put on probation? I actually give Saban more credit for winning when it is isn't the NIL and transfer portal circus we have now. He got players there because he had a proven track record of developing players for the pros. And also win a few National Championships while you are at it.


Same here, not a Saban fan but the excellence of the program cannot be ignored.




My biggest beef with that is the absolute cupcake mid season schedule they would have. It was no coincidence. Hell, even the Gophers would beat those teams they routinely scheduled so they could get healthy. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't illegal. Some would even suggest it was genius.


As far as excellence, I mean in the big games. Not a big follower of CFB but a lot of teams scheduled cupcakes, and people expected the top teams to be up 42-0 in the 3rd before pulling their starters (although maybe point differential became a thing, IDK). IMO those were 'whatever' games. And did cupcakes go out of fashion a while back because strength of schedule was introduced as a factor in determining rankings?

Also, they played SEC games as part of their schedule. Over the years there have been a lot of good SEC teams and think (but not sure) a given SEC team was/is stronger than a team from another conference that was of the same tier. I recall Alabama (or any top SEC team) would have to play several SEC teams that were anything but cupcakes. It was a bit of a gauntlet. Remember Auburn? LSU? Although, one can't put too much weight on intra-conference schedules. For example if Alabama and LSU played each other and the rest of their schedule was the same, LSU would have a tougher schedule... because they are playing Alabama. I guess there is a lot of subjectivity, from determining CFB playoff teams down to debates on a blog or at a bar.

I'd be curious to know how easy their overall schedule was over the years compared to other top teams. If there was an objective way to determine that.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/11/2024 1:29:11 PM >
Post #: 6956
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 1:15:46 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Kinda "funny" how both he and Sabin are calling it quits when they realize their "success meal tickets" are taken from them. The 2 "greatest football coaches ever"

Take Brady away from BB and all the recruiting advantages from NS and guess what? They fall back down to earth.


Belichick, Sean Payton (who had Brees), Saban with now nonexistent recruiting advantages. Pete Carroll had his greatest success when Russell Wilson was at his best. Since Wilson started fading and then got traded Carroll's teams have been average at best.

Mike McCarthy, when gifted Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers managed exactly one supberbowl.

Ron Lafleur did next to nothing with Aaron Rodgers as a QB. Jordan Love may be competent, but he's no Rodgers.

I am sure I could go on and on about this.

Until the portal in College Football, it didn't take great coaching to win titles, it took good recruiting.

In the NFL the teams with the Stars at QB are more likely to win more.

Bad coaching can derail that, but without a stud at QB, your team is more likely to suck. And if your Star QB moves on or retires, be prepared for your team to suck, no matter who the coach is for some time to come.

Sean Payton did the smart thing and left NO after one year without Brees, but then inexplicably decided to coach again...


Top recruits don't sign with someone just because of their recruiting pitch. But there is the chicken and egg thing, at least initially.

Coaches have to be pretty good recruiters, but there comes a point where a very small number of programs and draft results are so good that coaches like Coach K and Saban could have made a visit to the recruits home and simply said "Here are our recent accomplishments, here are some alumni in the pros, we don't guarantee playing time, thank you ma'am for the appetizers."
Post #: 6957
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 1:16:43 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.
Post #: 6958
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 2:36:27 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline 		https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39046831/tom-brady-super-bowl-era-bill-belichick-exit

They had some post-Brady success but the trend has been downward. BB says they had little cap once Brady left. Then what FAs they signed did not pan out. Cam Newton and Matt Jones at QB. Bad drafting.

Another case of giving a high first-round QB an extended look. They are now sitting well for a top QB.
Post #: 6959
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:07:35 PM   
beo

 

Posts: 2394
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Without Bilichick Tom Brady is John David Booty.

Patriots dynasty would have still existed.




With Brady Starting they were perennial favorites for the Superbowl. Went to 9 of them, won 6. Without Brady they've hardly made the playoffs.

It could be argued that both made the other better....but one went on to win a superbowl without the other and his name was Brady, not Belichick.

I disagree on Brady being John David Booty without Belichick


That is a somewhat one sided argument.

Brady went to a stacked team.
BB didn't get to plug in a stacked qb.

Brady should get TONS of credit.
But Bill is a master defensive schemer... and HOFer for sure.

(BB is a horrible GM though... and Brady hid that for a long time)

< Message edited by beo -- 1/11/2024 4:09:20 PM >
Post #: 6960
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:21:34 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.
Post #: 6961
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:28:57 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline 		Laughable that some championship starved Vikings fans opine that Saban and (especially) Belichick were not all that. And of course there is the obligatory out-in-left-field fan that dismisses Brady

There are automatic first ballots for any and all Hall of Fames in existence.
Post #: 6962
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:31:03 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		IMO the most underrated aspect of the Patriots success was OL coach Scarnecchia.

Brady owes a lot of his success to that guy, I heard him say it on several occasions.

So whether you believe that Brady deserves most or some of the credit ...

the whole was definitely better than the individual parts.
Post #: 6963
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:33:04 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


Weird that Belichick's personality is similar to Bud Grant's. Stoic.
Post #: 6964
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 4:58:43 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


Weird that Belichick's personality is similar to Bud Grant's. Stoic.

Like no time to bother with team culture or collaboration.

For all I know Bill has a hideous chuckle in team meetings ... is the life of the coaching fraternity.

I think he's a jerk for being so successful ... while I have stare out from the cold dark void of, "lets run it back and try to squeeze another playoff win out of our boy."
Post #: 6965
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 5:21:23 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


Weird that Belichick's personality is similar to Bud Grant's. Stoic.

Like no time to bother with team culture or collaboration.

For all I know Bill has a hideous chuckle in team meetings ... is the life of the coaching fraternity.

I think he's a jerk for being so successful ... while I have stare out from the cold dark void of, "lets run it back and try to squeeze another playoff win out of our boy."



He instituted a lot of culture: my way or GTFO. Any one of hundreds of players and coaches who won a SB under him will say the culture was perfect!

As for holding collaboration in esteem, we have the self-admitted collaborative Kwesi so all is good.
Post #: 6966
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 5:47:22 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


Weird that Belichick's personality is similar to Bud Grant's. Stoic.

Like no time to bother with team culture or collaboration.

For all I know Bill has a hideous chuckle in team meetings ... is the life of the coaching fraternity.

I think he's a jerk for being so successful ... while I have stare out from the cold dark void of, "lets run it back and try to squeeze another playoff win out of our boy."



He instituted a lot of culture: my way or GTFO. Any one of hundreds of players and coaches who won a SB under him will say the culture was perfect!

As for holding collaboration in esteem, we have the self-admitted collaborative Kwesi so all is good.

It felt like the culture was more about accountability and less about stats and draft position, it felt like there were a lot of no name contributors that stepped up while bigger assets were getting shipped out, it felt like players were not overstaying their usefulness. It felt like his teams were working things out during the season and improving over time.

I dont know how true that is, I didnt follow them closely.
Post #: 6967
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 7:15:55 PM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40688
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: online 		Brady is obviously special. I just happen to believe he wasn’t when he came into the league and it is possible he doesn’t become a fraction of what he became if he came up in many other situations. Whereas I think the Patriots success could have looked similar with other QB’s.
Post #: 6968
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 8:21:11 PM   
beo

 

Posts: 2394
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


I suppose that is true...

However, I just feel like Bills ability to get the absolute most out of marginal talent was so good he could mask how bad his high draft picks were.

He had his 3wr(Troy Brown) playing cb at a higher level than most of the Vikings draft picks in the last decade.

If he could have hit on 1st rounders at all the dynasty might still be going.
Post #: 6969
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/11/2024 10:57:04 PM   
timz

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 11/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Laughable that some championship starved Vikings fans opine that Saban and (especially) Belichick were not all that. And of course there is the obligatory out-in-left-field fan that dismisses Brady

There are automatic first ballots for any and all Hall of Fames in existence.

Americans love a winner until they start winning to often.
Post #: 6970
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/12/2024 9:56:03 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Laughable that some championship starved Vikings fans opine that Saban and (especially) Belichick were not all that. And of course there is the obligatory out-in-left-field fan that dismisses Brady

There are automatic first ballots for any and all Hall of Fames in existence.

Americans love a winner until they start winning to often.

More about human nature than nationality. Or in my case, small mindedness.
Post #: 6971
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/12/2024 10:04:15 AM   
SAMiller711r

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 12/31/2021
Status: offline 		In regards as to whether Brady made Belichick or the other way around, I personally think, they were the very definition of a collaborative relationship. It is certainly true that Brady won a Superbowl in Tampa, causing all manner of ignorant thinking people to espouse opinions that this proved Brady was clearly the better of the two. Brady for all of his accolades has been somewhat under valued. Always seemed to take a backseat to Peyton and some of the others. But statistically he held his own. There's a reason he is the GOAT and number of Superbowl championships is only part of it. That said, I think his Tampa win was a confluence of being the right person at exactly the right time in the right organization. In short he got kinda lucky. As for Belichick, I think lots of folks just cant get around their dislike of him, but he took New England to 9 Superbowls,(6/3) won two others as Parcels ' DC (Giants) and lost an additional SB as the DC for Parcels with New England. (The Favre/Bledsoe Superbowl.) I think he rates as a legit GOAT on his own merits. His last few years were bad. So what. Happens to all of em. Very few go out on top. Last point. Every single Hall of fame coach has his hall of fame QB in there with him. Bud and Fran, Walsh and Montana, Lombardi/Starr, Landry/ Staubach. There more. In the end it will be Belichick and Brady as it should be, Neither being the dominate partner.

_____________________________

O Lord save us from the fury of the Norsemen
Post #: 6972
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/12/2024 10:38:14 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


I suppose that is true...

However, I just feel like Bills ability to get the absolute most out of marginal talent was so good he could mask how bad his high draft picks were.

He had his 3wr(Troy Brown) playing cb at a higher level than most of the Vikings draft picks in the last decade.

If he could have hit on 1st rounders at all the dynasty might still be going.


Well thank you. I try, but some posters that are beyond hope will be waived shortly.
Post #: 6973
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/12/2024 11:27:06 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28604
Status: offline 		Pats already named Mayo as HC.
Post #: 6974
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/12/2024 11:33:35 AM   
beo

 

Posts: 2394
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
But Belichick's pre-Brady and post-Brady records clearly suggest the GOAT was the key to the sustained success,



Pretty hard to argue otherwise...



BB is a hands-down hall of famer, regardless.

Belichick, who I dislike immensely, was both HC and GM for all those SBs ... so gets credit for putting together the teams ... offenses, defenses, STs that Brady powered to all those SBs.

Its hard to take anything away from either jerk.


I suppose that is true...

However, I just feel like Bills ability to get the absolute most out of marginal talent was so good he could mask how bad his high draft picks were.

He had his 3wr(Troy Brown) playing cb at a higher level than most of the Vikings draft picks in the last decade.

If he could have hit on 1st rounders at all the dynasty might still be going.


Well thank you. I try, but some posters that are beyond hope will be waived shortly.


Better to get rid of a poster a year too early rather than a year too late... lol
Post #: 6975
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