quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

So here is the nonsense that I will once again point to:

Career totals before joining the Vikings:
Kyler Murray (Cardinals, 87 games/87 starts)Passing: 1,974 completions / 2,941 attempts (67.1%), 20,460 yards (7.0 Y/A), 121 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 passer rating.

I suppose its a victory that you are using Murry stats to support a Murry argument (instead of Darnold's etc.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

So here is the nonsense that I will once again point to:

Career totals before joining the Vikings:
Kyler Murray (Cardinals, 87 games/87 starts)Passing: 1,974 completions / 2,941 attempts (67.1%), 20,460 yards (7.0 Y/A), 121 TDs, 60 INTs, 92.2 passer rating.

I suppose its a victory that you are using Murry stats to support a Murry argument (instead of Darnold's etc.)

Who is Murry?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

Nothing wrong with referencing past stats … its you squeezing triangular stats through a round hole thats the issue. Stats aren’t all that, especially when you only skew them in one direction. IMO you always put me in the position of playing a devil’s advocate, I want these people to succeed as much as anybody.

As far as our good QB coach, yes he has done some really good work with veterans. I hope he figures out why his system zombified the two best coaching examples on his resume come playoff time. Murray looked awful in his one playoff game - yes a different team, weapons, etc. so we’ll see if and when we get there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

Nothing wrong with referencing past stats … its you squeezing triangular stats through a round hole thats the issue. Stats aren’t all that, especially when you only skew them in one direction. IMO you always put me in the position of playing a devil’s advocate, I want these people to succeed as much as anybody.

As far as our good QB coach, yes he has done some really good work with veterans. I hope he figures out why his system zombified the two best coaching examples on his resume come playoff time. Murray looked awful in his one playoff game - yes a different team, weapons, etc. so we’ll see if and when we get there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

Nothing wrong with referencing past stats … its you squeezing triangular stats through a round hole thats the issue. Stats aren’t all that, especially when you only skew them in one direction. IMO you always put me in the position of playing a devil’s advocate, I want these people to succeed as much as anybody.

As far as our good QB coach, yes he has done some really good work with veterans. I hope he figures out why his system zombified the two best coaching examples on his resume come playoff time. Murray looked awful in his one playoff game - yes a different team, weapons, etc. so we’ll see if and when we get there.

Was it the system or was it when we finally met a top defense and our own defense didn't hold up?

If we look at the Super Bowl of last year the MVP was the RB (and should have included the defense), Maye was a "Zombie", and Darnold didn't set the world on fire.

KOC does coach up QBs to get to the playoffs......Kirk and Sam haven't performed in the playoffs but neither did our defense, special teams, or run game so those other phases are on the coach also.

Seattle dominated in the post season in all phases.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

When 'Sam' and the team played the Lions, HFA throughout the playoffs was on the line. Detroit's D was decimated with injuries. They had given up something like 34 ppg on average the six or so games prior!

We should have steamrolled and obliterated that defense.

That was WELL substantiated in these threads. You are either incredibly forgetful or very disingenuous (i.e. dishonest).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

Nothing wrong with referencing past stats … its you squeezing triangular stats through a round hole thats the issue. Stats aren’t all that, especially when you only skew them in one direction. IMO you always put me in the position of playing a devil’s advocate, I want these people to succeed as much as anybody.

As far as our good QB coach, yes he has done some really good work with veterans. I hope he figures out why his system zombified the two best coaching examples on his resume come playoff time. Murray looked awful in his one playoff game - yes a different team, weapons, etc. so we’ll see if and when we get there.

Was it the system or was it when we finally met a top defense and our own defense didn't hold up?

If we look at the Super Bowl of last year the MVP was the RB (and should have included the defense), Maye was a "Zombie", and Darnold didn't set the world on fire.

KOC does coach up QBs to get to the playoffs......Kirk and Sam haven't performed in the playoffs but neither did our defense, special teams, or run game so those other phases are on the coach also.

Seattle dominated in the post season in all phases.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Credible reports are coming out that he's asking for a fresh start somewhere. Not all that surprising. I'm not attached to him in anyway. Woulda been great if he panned out but "meh". It just sucks that we traded up and then wasted the #10 overall pick (if the reports are true).

Some suggested trading him for Richardson. Why would you do that now? (Richardson may end up being a cut if he isn't traded and is on his last year of his contract). At worse we have another year to decide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Pro-Football-Reference career advanced splits (Snap Type; approximates usage via pass attempts + rushes)Shotgun: 1,772 completions on 2,622 attempts + 417 rushes.
Under Center: 202 completions on 319 attempts + 115 rushes.

This is consistent with under center being a small share of his total involvement (especially on dropbacks). Note that these are not pure snap counts of every offensive play, and pistol is not broken out separately (it generally falls under shotgun-style tracking).

pro-football-reference.com

Context by era:
Kingsbury years (2019–2022): Extremely shotgun-heavy (often 90%+), minimal under center.
Petzing/Gannon years (2023–2025 partial): Noticeable increase in under-center snaps (for run game, play-action, and versatility), though still not the majority. Team under-center rates rose, and Murray himself took more of those snaps.
Pistol appears occasionally in reporting (e.g., specific zone-read or condensed looks) but is not a primary alignment for him career-wide.

In short, across his career Kyler Murray has lined up under center only a small fraction of the time (most commonly cited in the mid-single digits to low teens percent), with the large majority of his snaps/dropbacks coming from shotgun (pistol included as a smaller portion of the non-under-center looks). Usage of under center increased later in Arizona but never approached 50%. Data sources can differ slightly by whether they track all snaps, dropbacks only, or pass plays, and by the exact cutoff date.

Conclusion: Unless KOC changes his scheme, Murray has another thing - a significant one at that - to adjust to.

Conclusion: 1) How are you positive the adjustment doesn't help him? 2) Even after 1 quarter of one preseason game?

Never said that. There you go again.

I said "Unless KOC changes his scheme, Murray has another thing - a significant one at that - to adjust to."

Geez, it was literally a one sentence post and you confused yourself.

You mean the post where Brad H agreed with you in a reply?
So you weren't saying it but just saying?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The DL is just fine.
JJM is the QBOTF.
Sam did this so JJM...
Rodgers and Love sat so JJM...
When we finally met a top defense.

Also, a day of Phil posting Brad and I were in agreement when in fact I never replied to him (unlike Phil) and never used his name (unlike Phil, who used his name in six different posts that day!). Projection personified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Sometimes you have to start with past stats because some struggle seeing how good our coach is for qbs; then factor in a couple past qbs (Kirk and Sam) that have had success in the system and even a journeyman Wentz who moves the team up and down the field but can't score TDs. Also factor a better 3rd WR and having a healthy OLine.

Struggle Bus is closer than a Metaphor.

Maybe you two are stuck in the past thinking we have Childress, Steckel, or Tice at coach. Coaches who aren't QB friendly.....

Nothing wrong with referencing past stats … its you squeezing triangular stats through a round hole thats the issue. Stats aren’t all that, especially when you only skew them in one direction. IMO you always put me in the position of playing a devil’s advocate, I want these people to succeed as much as anybody.

As far as our good QB coach, yes he has done some really good work with veterans. I hope he figures out why his system zombified the two best coaching examples on his resume come playoff time. Murray looked awful in his one playoff game - yes a different team, weapons, etc. so we’ll see if and when we get there.

Was it the system or was it when we finally met a top defense and our own defense didn't hold up?

If we look at the Super Bowl of last year the MVP was the RB (and should have included the defense), Maye was a "Zombie", and Darnold didn't set the world on fire.

KOC does coach up QBs to get to the playoffs......Kirk and Sam haven't performed in the playoffs but neither did our defense, special teams, or run game so those other phases are on the coach also.

Seattle dominated in the post season in all phases.....

When we finally met a top defense? Why do you continually make up shit with your veiled and loaded questions?!

When 'Sam' and the team played the Lions, HFA throughout the playoffs was on the line. Detroit's D was decimated with injuries. They had given up something like 34 ppg on average the six or so games prior!

We should have steamrolled and obliterated that defense.

That was WELL substantiated in these threads. You are either incredibly forgetful or very disingenuous (i.e. dishonest).

And the Rams D was not a world beater.

Moreover you obviously are trying to bolster your crap case with the minute sample that last year's SB MVP was a RB, although the facts show the QB position easily has the most MVPs.

Care to argue or retract your premise about us meeting a top defense, or will you choose a different rabbit hole to run to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

When 'Sam' and the team played the Lions, HFA throughout the playoffs was on the line. Detroit's D was decimated with injuries. They had given up something like 34 ppg on average the six or so games prior!

We should have steamrolled and obliterated that defense.

That was WELL substantiated in these threads. You are either incredibly forgetful or very disingenuous (i.e. dishonest).

Detroit points given up:

Week 14: 31 GBP
Week 15: 48 BUF
Week 16: 17 CHI
Week 17: 34 SFO
Week 18: 9 MIN
DIV: 45 WAS

The only other team that didn't steamroll them were the 5-12 Bears with the 28th ranked offense. And they still just came up 1 point short of their season average (18.2 PPG).

Darnold was 18/41 for 166 yards and no TDs.

He was sacked twice, hurried 3 times and got hit on 8 of 41 attempts. We had 1 drop and 13 of his 41 attempts were considered bad throws (34.2%).

Detroit had almost nothing to do with Sam crumbling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

First half vs the Lions: Punt, Punt, FG, Punt, FG. It was worse in the 2nd half, just 3 points.

First half vs the Rams: Punt, FG, Interception, Fumble, Downs. Second half more of the same but 2 FGs.


Again, the Lions D was decimated.

The Rams D, to zero in, was just below dead average (17th) in PA and 27th in EXP.

Phil's "top defense(s)" my arse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

First half vs the Lions: Punt, Punt, FG, Punt, FG. It was worse in the 2nd half, just 3 points.

First half vs the Rams: Punt, FG, Interception, Fumble, Downs. Second half more of the same but 2 FGs.


Again, the Lions D was decimated.

The Rams D, to zero in, was just below dead average (17th) in PA and 27th in EXP.

Phil's "top defense(s)" my arse.

I don't want to rehash old games but if I have to.....

I recall it being the worst two games ever played by an offensive line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

First half vs the Lions: Punt, Punt, FG, Punt, FG. It was worse in the 2nd half, just 3 points.

First half vs the Rams: Punt, FG, Interception, Fumble, Downs. Second half more of the same but 2 FGs.


Again, the Lions D was decimated.

The Rams D, to zero in, was just below dead average (17th) in PA and 27th in EXP.

Phil's "top defense(s)" my arse.

I don't want to rehash old games but if I have to.....

I recall it being the worst two games ever played by an offensive line.

Worst ever? I seem to recall Archie Manning getting sacked by the Bears so many times he finally cried uncle and the Vikes pulled him in the 4th quarter to releave his pain.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

When 'Sam' and the team played the Lions, HFA throughout the playoffs was on the line. Detroit's D was decimated with injuries. They had given up something like 34 ppg on average the six or so games prior!

We should have steamrolled and obliterated that defense.

That was WELL substantiated in these threads. You are either incredibly forgetful or very disingenuous (i.e. dishonest).

Detroit points given up:

Week 14: 31 GBP
Week 15: 48 BUF
Week 16: 17 CHI
Week 17: 34 SFO
Week 18: 9 MIN
DIV: 45 WAS

The only other team that didn't steamroll them were the 5-12 Bears with the 28th ranked offense. And they still just came up 1 point short of their season average (18.2 PPG).

Darnold was 18/41 for 166 yards and no TDs.

He was sacked twice, hurried 3 times and got hit on 8 of 41 attempts. We had 1 drop and 13 of his 41 attempts were considered bad throws (34.2%).

Detroit had almost nothing to do with Sam crumbling.

No shit....2025-26 playoffs did Sam do any better than 2024-25? Sam didn't have to win the games which points to what Seattle had last year in all areas. The Seattle RB was the MVP and should have been their defense/ST.

In you and Bill's mind you think we could have won it all with Sam w/o a dominate run game and defense? Detroit didn't win it all with with that defense either.....but keep moving the goalposts.

The last 2 Super Bowl winners had the #1 Defense and a dominate running game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Who's mocking them? They're awesome! I would have finished with..."you'll shoot your eye out kid"