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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 3:53:21 AM

Bruce Johnson

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Sacks allowed from Sunday

Ezra Cleveland: 3
Dakota Dozier: 2
An unblocked blitz: Uncredited

Purple Post on Twitter

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:13:19 AM

Bill Jandro

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IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

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Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 5427

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:40:05 AM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

I honestly can't remember a play where Cousins had 3+ seconds to get a pass off.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:40:09 AM

SoMnFan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

A couple of the other big games this weekend, they were laying out stats, I think Big Ben had gone like 200+ pass attempts without a sack.. Mahomes as well.
I understand why, with their systems, but still, I agree Bill.
You have to be ready to bail on the play, you have to stop putting us in 2nd and 17 and 3rd and 21
He's too ready to accept the sacks, I agree. And then, we can all argue about how he throws it away too soon.

I long for the day when we have an OLine again that is a collection of studs and steamrollers. Until then, you gotta have a plan, Kirk.

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Post #: 5429

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:41:28 AM

SoMnFan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

I honestly can't remember a play where Cousins had 3+ seconds to get a pass off.

Also agree on this, he never gets that "stands back there all day" moment, like other QBs do

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Post #: 5430

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:41:46 AM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

A couple of the other big games this weekend, they were laying out stats, I think Big Ben had gone like 200+ pass attempts without a sack.. Mahomes as well.
I understand why, with their systems, but still, I agree Bill.
You have to be ready to bail on the play, you have to stop putting us in 2nd and 17 and 3rd and 21
He's too ready to accept the sacks, I agree. And then, we can all argue about how he throws it away too soon.
I long for the day when we have an OLine again that is a collection of studs and steamrollers. Until then, you gotta have a plan, Kirk.

You mean like drop back 2 steps and duck? I think the OC is the one who needs to come up with a plan.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:42:55 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

I honestly can't remember a play where Cousins had 3+ seconds to get a pass off.

Also agree on this, he never gets that "stands back there all day" moment, like other QBs do

It's like you said on the other Vikes thread. The Vikings have way more success on the roll out. Why don't they do it more.

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Post #: 5432

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 8:44:23 AM

SoMnFan

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Yeah, he does too
They all need to have a plan
The plan can't be based on "normal" because we aren't giving him "normal" time.
If there won't be a pocket, don't design routes that require them

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Post #: 5433

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 9:32:35 AM

Mr. Ed

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From: Minne-so-ta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Yeah, he does too
They all need to have a plan
The plan can't be based on "normal" because we aren't giving him "normal" time.
If there won't be a pocket, don't design routes that require them

I know he's not the fleet-afoot QB

And at this point it's probably too late for timing and such.

Being in the shotgun more some read option and PASSING out of it would help.

IMO too many drop backs when the other guys know it, vs already being in the shotgun or pistol or squirt gun formation.

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Post #: 5434

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 9:59:41 AM

ronhextall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

I honestly can't remember a play where Cousins had 3+ seconds to get a pass off.

Also agree on this, he never gets that "stands back there all day" moment, like other QBs do

It's like you said on the other Vikes thread. The Vikings have way more success on the roll out. Why don't they do it more.

Rolling out feels like a gimmick to me. Do it too often and the defense will pick up on the tendencies and end up only needing to defend 1/2 the field.
I think that's part of the reason the running QBs have a short shelf life.

Pocket QB's force the defense to guard the entire field.

Post #: 5435

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:03:19 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

I honestly can't remember a play where Cousins had 3+ seconds to get a pass off.

Also agree on this, he never gets that "stands back there all day" moment, like other QBs do

It's like you said on the other Vikes thread. The Vikings have way more success on the roll out. Why don't they do it more.

Rolling out feels like a gimmick to me. Do it too often and the defense will pick up on the tendencies and end up only needing to defend 1/2 the field.
I think that's part of the reason the running QBs have a short shelf life.

Pocket QB's force the defense to guard the entire field.

I don't agree. Play action roll out dove tails nicely with a run heavy offense. A pocket QB can only force the defense to guard the entire field if there is an actual pocket, which there rarely is with the Vikings.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:11:06 AM

David F.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

A couple of the other big games this weekend, they were laying out stats, I think Big Ben had gone like 200+ pass attempts without a sack.. Mahomes as well.
I understand why, with their systems, but still, I agree Bill.
You have to be ready to bail on the play, you have to stop putting us in 2nd and 17 and 3rd and 21
He's too ready to accept the sacks, I agree. And then, we can all argue about how he throws it away too soon.
I long for the day when we have an OLine again that is a collection of studs and steamrollers. Until then, you gotta have a plan, Kirk.

You mean like drop back 2 steps and duck? I think the OC is the one who needs to come up with a plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrvRIJEtVEg

Watch it for yourselves and count the seconds off for each QB on each play. Long answer: Brady tends to get the ball off just as I'm finishing saying 'two-one-thousand'. Occasionally with Brady I get to 'three-one-thousand'. With Cousins I'm most often at 'three-one-thousand' when he releases it. The best plays seemed to happen when the ball was released at 'two-one thousand'.

Regarding the sacks. One of the sacks happens at 'five-one-thousand' and he wasn't under duress until that fifth count. A number of them happen just as I finish 'three-one-thousand'. One of them is a jailbreak and he's sacked almost immediately after the play fake. For the most part though, he has time - about the same amount of time as Brady had. Just look at how often Brady releases at the 2-second mark vs. Kirk and that will tell you the story of the game, heck maybe even the teams. I wish like hell I could go to the games and watch downfield and see if our targets are open or not. Or perhaps more importantly with Cousins, just HOW open are they.

Short answer: Cousins had/has plenty of time and holds the ball too long - need a better field view to see if receivers are open or not and to what degree.

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I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5437

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:26:01 AM

TJSweens

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If the comparison is going to be to Brady then most QB in history are going to come up short. The offense has also been schemed around Brady for quick developing plays. The Vikings have longer developing routes.

Look, I'm not denying Cousins can lock onto one receiver and hold the ball too long, but let's not pretend he's getting an abundance of time or a clean pocket to throw out of. The pass protection grades on our offensive linemen say otherwise.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:28:49 AM

Jeff Jesser

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Not only that. Our 3rd leading WR is Bisi Johnson with a whopping 176 yards. He'd barely crack the top 10 on Tampa. We desperately need an upgrade there.

Post #: 5439

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:36:49 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
Not only that. Our 3rd leading WR is Bisi Johnson with a whopping 176 yards. He'd barely crack the top 10 on Tampa. We desperately need an upgrade there.

Yep, it's a lot easier to get rid of the ball when receivers get open. Double team Thielen and Jefferson and take your chances with the rest.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:44:47 AM

Trekgeekscott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

A couple of the other big games this weekend, they were laying out stats, I think Big Ben had gone like 200+ pass attempts without a sack.. Mahomes as well.
I understand why, with their systems, but still, I agree Bill.
You have to be ready to bail on the play, you have to stop putting us in 2nd and 17 and 3rd and 21
He's too ready to accept the sacks, I agree. And then, we can all argue about how he throws it away too soon.
I long for the day when we have an OLine again that is a collection of studs and steamrollers. Until then, you gotta have a plan, Kirk.

You mean like drop back 2 steps and duck? I think the OC is the one who needs to come up with a plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrvRIJEtVEg

Watch it for yourselves and count the seconds off for each QB on each play. Long answer: Brady tends to get the ball off just as I'm finishing saying 'two-one-thousand'. Occasionally with Brady I get to 'three-one-thousand'. With Cousins I'm most often at 'three-one-thousand' when he releases it. The best plays seemed to happen when the ball was released at 'two-one thousand'.

Regarding the sacks. One of the sacks happens at 'five-one-thousand' and he wasn't under duress until that fifth count. A number of them happen just as I finish 'three-one-thousand'. One of them is a jailbreak and he's sacked almost immediately after the play fake. For the most part though, he has time - about the same amount of time as Brady had. Just look at how often Brady releases at the 2-second mark vs. Kirk and that will tell you the story of the game, heck maybe even the teams. I wish like hell I could go to the games and watch downfield and see if our targets are open or not. Or perhaps more importantly with Cousins, just HOW open are they.

Short answer: Cousins had/has plenty of time and holds the ball too long - need a better field view to see if receivers are open or not and to what degree.

Cousins did run for a few first downs on Sunday.

Cousins isn't the problem here. He has his faults to be sure, but he is not the problem.

The problem is the Oline and playcalling.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:47:04 AM

David F.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
Not only that. Our 3rd leading WR is Bisi Johnson with a whopping 176 yards. He'd barely crack the top 10 on Tampa. We desperately need an upgrade there.

Yep, it's a lot easier to get rid of the ball when receivers get open. Double team Thielen and Jefferson and take your chances with the rest.

If you double-team two WRs that only leaves 3 defenders (assuming a four-man-rush) to cover 3 other pass catchers. We'd score 50+ per game if that were the case.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5442

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:48:12 AM

Trekgeekscott

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Oh how I long for the says of Stringer, Dixon, Christy, McDaniel and Captain False Stuessie. with Everett Lindsay backing them all up.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:52:08 AM

David F.

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Joined: 12/31/2007
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I never said Cousins was the problem. It was put out there that he didn't have any time to throw. Watch that youtube of the highlights. He had/has time to throw. Maybe the receivers aren't open but that's pretty unlikely considering Thielen and Jefferson are the #2 and #3 ranked pass catchers in the NFL right now.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5444

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:55:25 AM

SoMnFan

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Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

< Message edited by SoMnFan -- 12/16/2020 10:58:13 AM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:57:11 AM

SoMnFan

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Poor guy has to worry about his own linemen sacking him, lately

Still chuckling about that one early in Sunday's game

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Post #: 5446

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:00:01 AM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
Not only that. Our 3rd leading WR is Bisi Johnson with a whopping 176 yards. He'd barely crack the top 10 on Tampa. We desperately need an upgrade there.

Yep, it's a lot easier to get rid of the ball when receivers get open. Double team Thielen and Jefferson and take your chances with the rest.

If you double-team two WRs that only leaves 3 defenders (assuming a four-man-rush) to cover 3 other pass catchers. We'd score 50+ per game if that were the case.

50+? Don't be ridiculous. And I'm not talking about doubling both on every play. And Tampa was killing us with a 4 man rush all day.

Like I said, there is no denying Cousins tends to lock in one receiver and wants the receiver to open when he releases the ball. But our problems are not simply a matter of Cousins holding the ball too long. Crappy line, slow developing plays, terrible pass blocking and lack of WR depth as well as Cousins tendency to hold on for the perfect target all contribute to an uneven offense.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:03:42 AM

Bill Jandro

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The worst kind of pressure(up the middle)makes things much more difficult for a qb.

Not sure how Spielman can watch this every season and still refuse to do anything about it. In fact, paying our best G to sit home this season is just stupid.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:11:08 AM

David F.

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Joined: 12/31/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
Not only that. Our 3rd leading WR is Bisi Johnson with a whopping 176 yards. He'd barely crack the top 10 on Tampa. We desperately need an upgrade there.

Yep, it's a lot easier to get rid of the ball when receivers get open. Double team Thielen and Jefferson and take your chances with the rest.

If you double-team two WRs that only leaves 3 defenders (assuming a four-man-rush) to cover 3 other pass catchers. We'd score 50+ per game if that were the case.

50+? Don't be ridiculous. And I'm not talking about doubling both on every play. And Tampa was killing us with a 4 man rush all day.

Like I said, there is no denying Cousins tends to lock in one receiver and wants the receiver to open when he releases the ball. But our problems are not simply a matter of Cousins holding the ball too long. Crappy line, slow developing plays, terrible pass blocking and lack of WR depth as well as Cousins tendency to hold on for the perfect target all contribute to an uneven offense.

Yes I know all of that. It was said that he had no time to throw. There's clear evidence to the contrary. I don't know why it's leading for some to feel defensive for Cousins.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5449

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:11:18 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

He has two major weaknesses.

1. He wants the receiver to get open first and then throw. The QB needs to anticipate the break and throw the damn ball.

2. He locks onto one guy, telegraphs the play and waits to long to go through his check downs.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 5450