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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:13:57 AM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

He has two major weaknesses.

1. He wants the receiver to get open first and then throw. The QB needs to anticipate the break and throw the damn ball.

2. He locks onto one guy, telegraphs the play and waits to long to go through his check downs.

Not to start another snowball fight, but in Sam Bradford's era here (duck/dodge/dive/duck) I enjoyed watching him throw the ball before the receiver broke on his route. They used to point it out a lot.
Was often a thing of beauty. Lots of warts on Sam, but that part of his game was awesome. Don't see it much with Kirk.
We have, it just isn't on display consistently.

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Play like a Pirate.

Post #: 5451

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:14:17 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

He has two major weaknesses.

1. He wants the receiver to get open first and then throw. The QB needs to anticipate the break and throw the damn ball.

2. He locks onto one guy, telegraphs the play and waits to long to go through his check downs.

If what you say is true then he is not an NFL starting-level QB. Those are fatal weaknesses.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5452

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:16:54 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

He has two major weaknesses.

1. He wants the receiver to get open first and then throw. The QB needs to anticipate the break and throw the damn ball.

2. He locks onto one guy, telegraphs the play and waits to long to go through his check downs.

Not to start another snowball fight, but in Sam Bradford's era here (duck/dodge/dive/duck) I enjoyed watching him throw the ball before the receiver broke on his route. They used to point it out a lot.
Was often a thing of beauty. Lots of warts on Sam, but that part of his game was awesome. Don't see it much with Kirk.
We have, it just isn't on display consistently.

The first time I saw Bradford throw a 15-yard-out vs. cover 2 in person with a view from behind I nearly shit myself. The speed on the ball was off the charts and he released it just as the WR was starting his break. I'd like to have seen Marino - I've heard he's still the best of all time on those.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5453

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:18:48 AM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

The worst kind of pressure(up the middle)makes things much more difficult for a qb.

Not sure how Spielman can watch this every season and still refuse to do anything about it. In fact, paying our best G to sit home this season is just stupid.

He hasn't refused to do anything about it. It's just that his actions have been well, to put it lightly, terrible.

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Post #: 5454

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:20:02 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Jussssssst asking him to have a plan in place, when there's no pocket.
That's all
Not a Kirk bash, hell, I like him.
Jusssssst asking him to not so readily accept 2nd and 19.
That's all.

And no ... the light toss to their DB/LB isn't in the option list

He has two major weaknesses.

1. He wants the receiver to get open first and then throw. The QB needs to anticipate the break and throw the damn ball.

2. He locks onto one guy, telegraphs the play and waits to long to go through his check downs.

If what you say is true then he is not an NFL starting-level QB. Those are fatal weaknesses.

If it's an every play thing, then it is a fatal weakness. If it's something you lapse into from time to time, not so much.

The one extreme is Brady. Pure ice water in the veins. The other extreme is Christian Ponder. Most are somewhere in between.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 5455

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:32:26 AM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

There were a number of times I caught myself yelling at the TV "Throw it away!" Kirk definitely holds the ball too long at times. It's like his internal clock fritzes out a couple of times a game. Against the Bucs it seemed to be happening more than usual.

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Post #: 5456

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:40:10 AM

Arlowe84

Posts: 331
Joined: 9/30/2019
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Luke Braun was saying on Twitter that they sent Thielen and Jefferson deep an insane amount in the 2nd half.
If so, that's a major failure on Kubiak's part.
You are playing an elite D line with a likely below avg oline.
Why not more short routes? Thielen and Jefferson have shown themselves shifty and able to get open off the line.
That's just a major game plan blunder IMO

Post #: 5457

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:42:30 AM

Arlowe84

Posts: 331
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

Kirk is terrible with his pocket presence.
He actually had a couple decent scrambles on Sunday, which is rare to see.
But man, the guy just has not backside sense, like so many of the elite QBs you see
It's maddening.

Post #: 5458

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 11:44:40 AM

Arlowe84

Posts: 331
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

Dantzler is getting a lot of hype on Twitter. Lots of good videos, pretty much locking guys up.

Quickly developing into one of best cover guys in the league.
Really crazy how much he's improved in such a short amount of time.
He was just God awful early on.

Post #: 5459

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 12:10:32 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Luke Braun was saying on Twitter that they sent Thielen and Jefferson deep an insane amount in the 2nd half.
If so, that's a major failure on Kubiak's part.
You are playing an elite D line with a likely below avg oline.
Why not more short routes? Thielen and Jefferson have shown themselves shifty and able to get open off the line.
That's just a major game plan blunder IMO

Throwing deep is exactly how you beat the Bucs. Throw some up there and see if the #2 and #3 WRs in the NFL can get them. We might have been all pleasantly surprised.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5460

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 12:12:52 PM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

IDK where to get the data but but I'm guessing 3-4 of the sacks Cousins held the ball for 3+ seconds.

He needs to get rid of it if there is nothing there. Live to play another down. Sacks/turnovers are game changers.

There were a number of times I caught myself yelling at the TV "Throw it away!" Kirk definitely holds the ball too long at times. It's like his internal clock fritzes out a couple of times a game. Against the Bucs it seemed to be happening more than usual.

On top of his other shortcomings, the guy must be deaf, because I was yelling at him too. With no results.

(why do we do that?)

_____________________________

Work like a Captain.
Play like a Pirate.

Post #: 5461

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 12:15:14 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If the comparison is going to be to Brady then most QB in history are going to come up short. The offense has also been schemed around Brady for quick developing plays. The Vikings have longer developing routes.

Look, I'm not denying Cousins can lock onto one receiver and hold the ball too long, but let's not pretend he's getting an abundance of time or a clean pocket to throw out of. The pass protection grades on our offensive linemen say otherwise.

The Brady of today is merely a shadow of his former self. He'll be out of the league soon. Heck, he missed more wide-open receivers than he hit.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 5462

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 12:45:46 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Dantzler is getting a lot of hype on Twitter. Lots of good videos, pretty much locking guys up.

Quickly developing into one of best cover guys in the league.
Really crazy how much he's improved in such a short amount of time.
He was just God awful early on.

getting all this playing time this year is going to be very beneficial.

Gladney is also getting better.

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”

Post #: 5463

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 1:03:07 PM

beo

Posts: 2394
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Kirk is terrible with his pocket presence.
He actually had a couple decent scrambles on Sunday, which is rare to see.
But man, the guy just has not backside sense, like so many of the elite QBs you see
It's maddening.

I would say Kirk WAS terrible.

He has surprisingly been better this year... I don't know that I'd say good... you see guys like Big Ben/Brady who aren't mobile and yet seem really hard to sack even with so/so protection becuase they are so good in the pocket.

I didn't think pocket presence was something you could learn but I from the last month of football I have to give Kirk at being much better than last year.

Post #: 5464

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 2:49:52 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I'm good with not having Marcus Peters on our team.

https://twitter.com/BrownsTherapy/status/1338978490062958594?s=09

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 5465

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 2:54:15 PM

Bruce Johnson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Yeah, he does too
They all need to have a plan
The plan can't be based on "normal" because we aren't giving him "normal" time.
If there won't be a pocket, don't design routes that require them

I know he's not the fleet-afoot QB

And at this point it's probably too late for timing and such.

Being in the shotgun more some read option and PASSING out of it would help.

IMO too many drop backs when the other guys know it, vs already being in the shotgun or pistol or squirt gun formation.

One of the problems for Cousins is that so much of the pressure is coming from the inside. He can't step up in the pocket.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 5466

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 3:42:02 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Great posts on Cousins. My two cents.

We did a lot of shotgun in 2018 with deflip. Didn't work well then.

Krause over at DailyNorseman did a great data dive on Cousins and TT (time to throw). Cousins TT in 2018 was 2.5 and if you take out rollouts was 2.45 in 2019. Each year that came in as NFL average and yet Cousins faced one of the highest pressure rates in the NFL. Both Shanahans and McVay have talked about one of Cousins strength's is read progression. Kyle showed video of Cousins in Atl and SF. If anything the knock has been he's too robotic in going through them, and why isn't great at going off script. Maybe he's gotten worse as a Viking. So hard for a fan to know what the play calls for and what the progression is supposed to be. It's great that a wide receiver is open but he might be the 4th option, play design is a huge part of it.

Cousins is one of the more accurate qbs, imo. I think he's number 2 in the nfl for deep pass accuracy the last three years. That throw to Thielan vs saints last year was thrown when thielan was lock step with the CB. I don't think he accomplishes that (and his ranking) without being able to throw with anticipation.

Having said that, I agree he his pocket awareness has been a liability and that he's done better this year.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 5467

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 4:41:47 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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The Vikings have run the most on 2nd down in the NFL and the most frequent by percentage other than the Broncos. Here are details:

https://twitter.com/DustBaker/status/1339320472534614016?s=19

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 5468

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 7:55:55 PM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Great posts on Cousins. My two cents.

We did a lot of shotgun in 2018 with deflip. Didn't work well then.

Krause over at DailyNorseman did a great data dive on Cousins and TT (time to throw). Cousins TT in 2018 was 2.5 and if you take out rollouts was 2.45 in 2019. Each year that came in as NFL average and yet Cousins faced one of the highest pressure rates in the NFL. Both Shanahans and McVay have talked about one of Cousins strength's is read progression. Kyle showed video of Cousins in Atl and SF. If anything the knock has been he's too robotic in going through them, and why isn't great at going off script. Maybe he's gotten worse as a Viking. So hard for a fan to know what the play calls for and what the progression is supposed to be. It's great that a wide receiver is open but he might be the 4th option, play design is a huge part of it.

Cousins is one of the more accurate qbs, imo. I think he's number 2 in the nfl for deep pass accuracy the last three years. That throw to Thielan vs saints last year was thrown when thielan was lock step with the CB. I don't think he accomplishes that (and his ranking) without being able to throw with anticipation.

Having said that, I agree he his pocket awareness has been a liability and that he's done better this year.

Solid post Pager.

Cousins has earned some respect from me since the 1-5 start. He is still a very flawed QB but I'm seeing better effort and determination from him than in the past.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 5469

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 9:32:11 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Great posts on Cousins. My two cents.

We did a lot of shotgun in 2018 with deflip. Didn't work well then.

Krause over at DailyNorseman did a great data dive on Cousins and TT (time to throw). Cousins TT in 2018 was 2.5 and if you take out rollouts was 2.45 in 2019. Each year that came in as NFL average and yet Cousins faced one of the highest pressure rates in the NFL. Both Shanahans and McVay have talked about one of Cousins strength's is read progression. Kyle showed video of Cousins in Atl and SF. If anything the knock has been he's too robotic in going through them, and why isn't great at going off script. Maybe he's gotten worse as a Viking. So hard for a fan to know what the play calls for and what the progression is supposed to be. It's great that a wide receiver is open but he might be the 4th option, play design is a huge part of it.

Cousins is one of the more accurate qbs, imo. I think he's number 2 in the nfl for deep pass accuracy the last three years. That throw to Thielan vs saints last year was thrown when thielan was lock step with the CB. I don't think he accomplishes that (and his ranking) without being able to throw with anticipation.

Having said that, I agree he his pocket awareness has been a liability and that he's done better this year.

Solid post Pager.

Cousins has earned some respect from me since the 1-5 start. He is still a very flawed QB but I'm seeing better effort and determination from him than in the past.

Thanks Bill! Wish I could find that article about Kyle and him showing Cousins tape to Matt Ryan. One of the plays, was a backside post route. It was Cousins 3rd read. Cousins had to move right then threw across his body into tight coverage and dropped a dime for a TD. Ryan's comment, was something to the effect of "I don't think I would attempt that" That route was designed to occupy the safety. Kyle also said he showed it his WRs as an example to always run your routes even though you're not a primary option.

I think it's just human/football fan nature to focus on the flaws of the starting QB. Bradford was "check down charlie". Rodgers last year was getting roasted for always going for the big play instead of picking up first downs and they made it to the NFC championship game.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 5470

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/16/2020 10:06:46 PM

beo

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Interesting insight to the kicking game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddl2Gs0HAgI

(Ryan Longwell intereviewed about Vikes kicking game)

< Message edited by beo -- 12/16/2020 10:12:59 PM >

Post #: 5471

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2020 10:34:37 AM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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We're back! I wanted to post this before, but now I can.

Here are some pass blocking grades and ranks among the 214 offensive linemen who’ve played 20+% of their team’s snaps:

• Dakota Dozier: 39.7 (207th / 214)
• Pat Elflein: 30.5 (209th / 214)
• Dru Samia: 18.7 (212th / 214)

Nick Olson on Twitter

And if you think that Cleveland is doing much better, he is 198th according to Olson. Clearly Cleveland belongs at tackle because he can not hold his anchor against these physical defensive tackles.

Once again, I believe Cousins deserves credit for doing as well as he is with the blocking from his offensive line. In particular, he is getting pressure from the middle of the line, so he can't step up. He's doing better flushing out of the pocket and running with the ball, but he would do better with more time to throw.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 5472

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2020 11:16:38 AM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

I apologize for being negative but this team will always be a pretender as long as Spielman is in charge. Those G rankings are embarrassing.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 5473

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2020 11:36:43 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I apologize for being negative but this team will always be a pretender as long as Spielman is in charge. Those G rankings are embarrassing.

No need to apologize. The guard numbers are embarrassing. When the offense is predicated on 30 inside handoffs combined with a straight drop passing game, the guard position is rather important and has been treated as an afterthought.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 5474

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2020 11:50:53 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

I apologize for being negative but this team will always be a pretender as long as Spielman is in charge. Those G rankings are embarrassing.

No need to apologize. The guard numbers are embarrassing. When the offense is predicated on 30 inside handoffs combined with a straight drop passing game, the guard position is rather important and has been treated as an afterthought.

Idk how to go about researching it. But it sure seemed like we had dominant type offenses when we had at least one stud G.

Hutchinson
McDaniel

Even career backup Joe Berger moved the LOS when he finally got his chance.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 5475