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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:45:00 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to.

2014: 28th
2015: 24th
2016: 21st
2017: 30st
2018: 28th
2019: 6th
2020: 23rd

Last year stands out as a clear outlier.

Good point.

Also shows why we are usually near the bottom in missed tackles.


Exactly.

Zimmer is probably the most conservative coach in the game - in every aspect, on both sides of the ball.

On the one hand, it makes it less likely that you "beat yourself".

On the other, it makes a number of games MUCH closer than they should be, and also makes it more difficult to come back when we're down big.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:46:15 PM   
SoMnFan


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:46:45 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here.

Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO.

Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few.

To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now.

Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined.

So you think Patterson doesn't teach it.

Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball.


To an extent, yes.

Just like Zimmer doesn't have his DB's gamble/play for INTs, he wants to make the solid (if unspectacular) play.

Its in his DNA to play everything tight.

Then we agree.

The original point was that we don't teach it at all.



I should have used "stress" instead of "teach".
Post #: 5778
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:48:31 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19458
Joined: 7/16/2007
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Status: offline 		Have any of our franchises ever had a balls to the wall type coach? I can't think of any.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:50:50 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

Posts: 12168
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline 		We are +26 in Zimmer's career in Minnesota.

Google Zimmer preaching turnovers on defense. I just discovered you will get plenty of options.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:51:08 PM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here.

Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO.

Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few.

To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now.

Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined.

So you think Patterson doesn't teach it.

Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball.


To an extent, yes.

Just like Zimmer doesn't have his DB's gamble/play for INTs, he wants to make the solid (if unspectacular) play.

Its in his DNA to play everything tight.

Then we agree.

The original point was that we don't teach it at all.



I should have used "stress" instead of "teach".

Clearly this whole argument is your fault. Next time get your phrasing right.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:53:55 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19458
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From: Southern Cal
Status: offline 		It's my one gift for the holidays.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:56:24 PM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

We are +26 in Zimmer's career in Minnesota.

Google Zimmer preaching turnovers on defense. I just discovered you will get plenty of options.

So we're +3.7 per year.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 2:58:38 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

We are +26 in Zimmer's career in Minnesota.

Google Zimmer preaching turnovers on defense. I just discovered you will get plenty of options.

So we're +3.7 per year.

Is that bad?
Post #: 5784
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 3:01:35 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

We are +26 in Zimmer's career in Minnesota.

Google Zimmer preaching turnovers on defense. I just discovered you will get plenty of options.


Or does he preach limiting turnovers on offense?
Post #: 5785
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 3:02:47 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 77938
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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Have any of our franchises ever had a balls to the wall type coach? I can't think of any.


Maybe Denny was the closest?

At least on offense.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 3:09:13 PM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

We are +26 in Zimmer's career in Minnesota.

Google Zimmer preaching turnovers on defense. I just discovered you will get plenty of options.

So we're +3.7 per year.

Is that bad?

It's certainly better than being negative, but it's hardly indicative of a team that emphasizes takeaways. David already posted that six of seven years under Zimmer the Vikings were near the bottom of the league in takeaways. That means that +26 figure is built on conservative offensive play resulting in hanging onto the ball.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 3:10:06 PM   
SoMnFan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Have any of our franchises ever had a balls to the wall type coach? I can't think of any.

Glen Sonmor

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Post #: 5788
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 5:55:25 PM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Most yards in a season by rookie WRs:
1. Anquan Boldin ('03) - 1,377
2. Randy Moss ('98) - 1,313
3. Odell Beckham Jr ('13) - 1,305
4. Michael Clayton ('04) - 1,193
5. Justin Jefferson ('20) - 1,182*

*through 15 games

PFF on Twitter

So 2 more 100 yard games and he will be number one? Am I reading this correctly?


Hmmm, let's see, 2 X 100 = 200, 200 + 1,182 = 1,382... Seems right to me.

Post #: 5789
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 5:56:09 PM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Have any of our franchises ever had a balls to the wall type coach? I can't think of any.

Glen Sonmor


Billy Martin
Post #: 5790
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 6:09:29 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here.

Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO.

Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few.

To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now.


Hunter forced 6 in 78 games.
Griffen forced 9 in 147 games.

I think its pretty clear that we coach our DEs to wrap up and make sure they get the tackle, vs going for the ball.

So not laughable, or a slight on Patterson. Just a different philosophy.

Perhaps that's why we traded Ngakoue.

No swatting the ball out of the QB's hands. We will have none of that.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 6:15:58 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser
BTW- back to the fumble thing. We (aka Zimmer) must not teach that as part of his system. We've never had a guy that goes after the ball like Mack does until Ngakoue got here. He had about 4 FF's in those first couple games for us and there's no way he learned that here.

Ngokoue came here with that skill. It was his MO.

Seems to me Griffen did it more than a few times. Hunter has caused a few.

To say that we don't teach it is laughable. Patterson is one of the most well respected DLine coaches in the league. We just don't have anyone who can turn the corner consistently on the blind side right now.

Ngokoue has more forced fumbles than Griffen and Hunter combined.

So you think Patterson doesn't teach it.

Every Head Coach and DLine Coach wants strip sacks. We have no one who can even get to the QB(consistently) to touch him let alone strip the ball.

As David said, it's pretty obvious Patterson and Zim emphasize getting the QB to the ground over forcing fumbles. Otherwise how do you account for Ngokoue having more forced fumbles in 77 games than a couple of pass rushing stars like Hunter and Griffen in 225 combined games?

I've seen Griffen tomohawk many times when he gets there. He doesn't just go for mid section and take a guy down.

Hunter is in face of QB so he can see it coming and tucks it away.

JMO but I think every D-Coordinator stresses TOs and this is a way to get them.

It's an innate skill. Some are better than others.

Any DC that didn't would be a damned fool. Win the TO battle usually leads to winning the game.

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Oline...early and often this draft
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 6:23:09 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to.

2014: 28th
2015: 24th
2016: 21st
2017: 30st
2018: 28th
2019: 6th
2020: 23rd

Last year stands out as a clear outlier.

Nice find

One thing I never agreed with about Zim's philosophy.

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Oline...early and often this draft
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 6:29:03 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to.

2014: 28th
2015: 24th
2016: 21st
2017: 30st
2018: 28th
2019: 6th
2020: 23rd

Last year stands out as a clear outlier.


It is frustrating to be sure.

But I think Zimmer puts a HUGE emphasis on wrapping up the runner and making the tackle.
The second guy should be going after the ball.

Turnovers are huge.

And Zimmer doesn't seem to push much for them.

Even our DBs aren't encouraged to go after the ball much. Priority is making sure the guy doesn't get much after the catch. It doesn't seem like many passes are all that contested imho

I think that will change with Dantzler and Gladney.

Until Zim coaches INT's out of them. Not 100% sure his philosophy is 21st century

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 6:31:43 PM   
Brad H


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From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline 		https://mighty.rip/2020/12/23/33-million-a-year-for-kirk-cousins-are-you-kidding-me/

Taking shots at Cousins.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 7:42:03 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

https://mighty.rip/2020/12/23/33-million-a-year-for-kirk-cousins-are-you-kidding-me/

Taking shots at Cousins.

Brad beating up on Cousins is so yesterday.

He actually has been gutting it out lately. Just an FYI since you haven't been watching the games.

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Oline...early and often this draft
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 9:28:40 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Have any of our franchises ever had a balls to the wall type coach? I can't think of any.


Maybe Denny was the closest?

At least on offense.


Not counting the knee of course ...
Post #: 5797
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/23/2020 10:51:37 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I don't think its a fluke (or a lack of talent) that we've only had one season under Zimmer where we haven't been bottom 3rd (or much worse) at forcing fumbles. It appears to be a philosophy at every level of the defense. How often do you see our players go after the ball instead of the tackle on a ball carrier? Definitely not as much as other teams seem to.

2014: 28th
2015: 24th
2016: 21st
2017: 30st
2018: 28th
2019: 6th
2020: 23rd

Last year stands out as a clear outlier.


It is frustrating to be sure.

But I think Zimmer puts a HUGE emphasis on wrapping up the runner and making the tackle.
The second guy should be going after the ball.

Turnovers are huge.

And Zimmer doesn't seem to push much for them.

Even our DBs aren't encouraged to go after the ball much. Priority is making sure the guy doesn't get much after the catch. It doesn't seem like many passes are all that contested imho

I think that will change with Dantzler and Gladney.

Until Zim coaches INT's out of them. Not 100% sure his philosophy is 21st century


Zimmer doesn't believe in those fancy interceptions and cheap forced fumbles. He'd rather see his middle linebacker make a perfect textbook form tackle after an eight yard gain. Let them drive down the field to about our forty-yard line, then actually blitz and get the sack - a standard sack mind you, and then give up a fourth-and-17 to their best WR who beats our prevent-style zone.

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I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/24/2020 4:45:59 AM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

https://mighty.rip/2020/12/23/33-million-a-year-for-kirk-cousins-are-you-kidding-me/

Taking shots at Cousins.

Brad beating up on Cousins is so yesterday.

He actually has been gutting it out lately. Just an FYI since you haven't been watching the games.


He might be gutting it out but all his guts add up to 100 million (so far) and he's delivered 0 division championships and 1 playoff win.

That's not good enough. We would have been better off with a "cheap" journeyman and spending it on defense.

Cousins is/was a mistake.
Post #: 5799
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/24/2020 9:33:54 AM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

https://mighty.rip/2020/12/23/33-million-a-year-for-kirk-cousins-are-you-kidding-me/

Taking shots at Cousins.

Brad beating up on Cousins is so yesterday.

He actually has been gutting it out lately. Just an FYI since you haven't been watching the games.


He might be gutting it out but all his guts add up to 100 million (so far) and he's delivered 0 division championships and 1 playoff win.

That's not good enough. We would have been better off with a "cheap" journeyman and spending it on defense.

Cousins is/was a mistake.

Which is exactly the same amount everyone else in the Viking organization have delivered during the same time frame ....
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