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RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 7:15:27 PM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

I’m pretty sure we needed him against New Orleans as well, and he was pretty darn dynamic.

We need his explosiveness, after trading Diggs We are pretty low on playmakers that can blow the top off the defense.

That being said I’m not fond of paying him much north of $12mil. Seems to be a meet in the middle # to me.

I wait it out as long possible as we do actually have leverage.

I really like Cook (when healthy) but if it weren't for different names and numbers on their jersey it was real difficult to tell whom was carrying the football between Cook and Mattison.

I'm all for paying Cook gordon money but he has simply not earned bell cow money.


i would vote for letting him hold out for a fresh legged push the second half of this season and then select another rb with a trade up in the 3rd round next draft....

or, maybe make a deal with him now that we won't franchise tag him next year if he plays the 2020 entire season - maybe even double his salary this season for that deal....


You said no team would pay him north of 10 million...I think you're wrong. I'm sure no player in the history of the game would agree to what you're proposing. If it were even permissible which I'm sure it's not.

ESPN Breaking...Dalvin Cook agrees to double his 2020 contract to 3 million based on hopes and promises by the Vikings...

Come on man...



it's my understanding that they could renegotiate the fourth year of a rookie contract...i know it's outlandish, but i'm a deal maker - and i don't have the Vikes promising cook anything after 2020...also, i totally stand behind my $10m/yr assertion - what has the guy done but look great in ten games over three years?....

if i felt that we could get the dalvin cook of the first eight games of 2019 over the life of a contract then i'd pay him $10m/yr - but he's not that guy for more than half a season....



I like that you're a deal maker and if there were a way to renegotiate his 4th year salary that would be a no brainers.

And you did say you'd have the team with a handshake promise they wouldn't franchise tag him 2021...
Post #: 1526
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 7:19:06 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Doesn't the NFL have salary bumps for players outside of the first round base on PT and performance? Did Cooks qualify for any of those? I think Elf did and ONeil.

I think Cook, when healthy, is special. I absolutely trust Kubiak's offense without him and using Mattison/Boone/2021 draft pick.

I'm also ok with a shorter (3 yrs), higher contract (11-13M) that has a bigger proportion of the contract as incentives (3-4M) and lower guarantees.

Sure. Mattison, Boone, Samia, Udoh ... the offense is loaded with back-ups that just need to be handed starting positions to transform into key starters.

What you ‘absolutely trust’ requires Dumbledore, not Kubiak.
Post #: 1527
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 7:19:16 PM   
Todd M

 

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After reading I don't believe the 4th year is negotiable. A new contract or playing for 1.5...that's the options.
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 7:22:27 PM   
Todd M

 

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I feel selfish. Now I don't know the exact rules on holdouts, contracts tolling and all that but...if you simply asked me if I was willing to take a chance on losing Cook after he came in after half a season and through the playoffs at chump change 2020 money...I'd say yes.
Post #: 1529
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 7:43:37 PM   
Pager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Doesn't the NFL have salary bumps for players outside of the first round base on PT and performance? Did Cooks qualify for any of those? I think Elf did and ONeil.

I think Cook, when healthy, is special. I absolutely trust Kubiak's offense without him and using Mattison/Boone/2021 draft pick.

I'm also ok with a shorter (3 yrs), higher contract (11-13M) that has a bigger proportion of the contract as incentives (3-4M) and lower guarantees.

Sure. Mattison, Boone, Samia, Udoh ... the offense is loaded with back-ups that just need to be handed starting positions to transform into key starters.

What you ‘absolutely trust’ requires Dumbledore, not Kubiak.



Interesting choice of verbiage, considering Spielman's comments about how the staff views some of the players. Kubiak has a long history of developing olines and getting big production out of RBs that weren't high draft pics (or drafted at all).

It is pretty entertaining how offended you are by the suggestion we could have players develop and thrive under Kubiaks system. Also entertaining is the fact you omit the 2021 draft pick at RB and include oline players which weren't part of my original post.

< Message edited by Pager -- 6/10/2020 8:14:45 PM >


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Post #: 1530
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 8:24:44 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Doesn't the NFL have salary bumps for players outside of the first round base on PT and performance? Did Cooks qualify for any of those? I think Elf did and ONeil.

I think Cook, when healthy, is special. I absolutely trust Kubiak's offense without him and using Mattison/Boone/2021 draft pick.

I'm also ok with a shorter (3 yrs), higher contract (11-13M) that has a bigger proportion of the contract as incentives (3-4M) and lower guarantees.

Sure. Mattison, Boone, Samia, Udoh ... the offense is loaded with back-ups that just need to be handed starting positions to transform into key starters.

What you ‘absolutely trust’ requires Dumbledore, not Kubiak.



Interesting choice of verbiage, considering Spielman's comments about how the staff views some of the players. Kubiak has a long history of developing olines and getting big production out of RBs that weren't high draft pics (or drafted at all).

It is pretty entertaining how offended you are by the suggestion we could have players develop and thrive under Kubiaks system. Also entertaining is the fact you omit the 2021 draft pick at RB and include oline players which weren't part of my original post.

Sorry to disappoint but not offended at all.

I find it interesting that some posters believe / have faith, etc. – maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, I don't claim to know – that we will be fine at our weakest position (G) by promoting last year's backups or that we will be fine by replacing arguably our best offensive skill player with his back-ups.
Post #: 1531
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 8:25:58 PM   
Pager


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RBs with success under Kubiak (2nd round or lower) - 1000 yd seasons.

Terrell Davis - 6th Round
Arian Foster - UDFA
Olandis Gary - 4th Round
Mike Anderson - 6th Round
Steve Slaton - 3rd Round
Just Forsett - 7th Round

So yeah - I think with a 2021 drafted RB/Mattison/Boone I would absolutely trust Kubiak's offense.

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Post #: 1532
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 8:45:04 PM   
Pager


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Doesn't the NFL have salary bumps for players outside of the first round base on PT and performance? Did Cooks qualify for any of those? I think Elf did and ONeil.

I think Cook, when healthy, is special. I absolutely trust Kubiak's offense without him and using Mattison/Boone/2021 draft pick.

I'm also ok with a shorter (3 yrs), higher contract (11-13M) that has a bigger proportion of the contract as incentives (3-4M) and lower guarantees.

Sure. Mattison, Boone, Samia, Udoh ... the offense is loaded with back-ups that just need to be handed starting positions to transform into key starters.

What you ‘absolutely trust’ requires Dumbledore, not Kubiak.



Interesting choice of verbiage, considering Spielman's comments about how the staff views some of the players. Kubiak has a long history of developing olines and getting big production out of RBs that weren't high draft pics (or drafted at all).

It is pretty entertaining how offended you are by the suggestion we could have players develop and thrive under Kubiaks system. Also entertaining is the fact you omit the 2021 draft pick at RB and include oline players which weren't part of my original post.

Sorry to disappoint but not offended at all.

I find it interesting that some posters believe / have faith, etc. – maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, I don't claim to know – that we will be fine at our weakest position (G) by promoting last year's backups or that we will be fine by replacing arguably our best offensive skill player with his back-ups.



What percentage of starters in the NFL were backups before becoming starters? Should we never think it's gonna work out? You should really talk to fans of the Patriots. They are replacing Brady with Hoyer/Stidham (back ups) and currently are the favorites (LV lines) to win their division. We are replacing Elf (terrible) and Kline (hurt/average).

Funny how you went from a Harry Potter reference to "I don't claim to know".

< Message edited by Pager -- 6/10/2020 8:48:42 PM >


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Post #: 1533
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 8:46:00 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

RBs with success under Kubiak (2nd round or lower) - 1000 yd seasons.

Terrell Davis - 6th Round
Arian Foster - UDFA
Olandis Gary - 4th Round
Mike Anderson - 6th Round
Steve Slaton - 3rd Round
Just Forsett - 7th Round

So yeah - I think with a 2021 drafted RB/Mattison/Boone I would absolutely trust Kubiak's offense.

Good for you.

We all hope it works out like that but since Kubiak has never had a starting OL with Reiff / Elflein or Collins / Bradbury / Dozier or Samia / O'Neill ... my expectations are rather low key at this point.

But – this is all based on early offseason projections. Once we start getting closer to the season and anticipation builds, I'm typically as optimistic as the next guy.
Post #: 1534
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 8:54:27 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Courtney Cronin:

Negotiations have been taking place for a while. According to multiple league sources, the Vikings’ initial offer was below $10 million per year, which was not deemed "reasonable" by Cook and his representatives.

Sources have suggested the initial figure proposed by Cook’s camp was close to the $16 million per year that Carolina’s Christian McCaffrey will make on his new deal. That number has dropped in recent negotiations to under $15 million, but neither side has yet to come to an agreement.



there is no team in the league that would give cook over $10m/yr...not one....

Maybe if they could sign him FA. Not if they had to give up a FRP for him. His best offer will come from the Vikings.

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Post #: 1535
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 9:30:41 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Doesn't the NFL have salary bumps for players outside of the first round base on PT and performance? Did Cooks qualify for any of those? I think Elf did and ONeil.

I think Cook, when healthy, is special. I absolutely trust Kubiak's offense without him and using Mattison/Boone/2021 draft pick.

I'm also ok with a shorter (3 yrs), higher contract (11-13M) that has a bigger proportion of the contract as incentives (3-4M) and lower guarantees.

Sure. Mattison, Boone, Samia, Udoh ... the offense is loaded with back-ups that just need to be handed starting positions to transform into key starters.

What you ‘absolutely trust’ requires Dumbledore, not Kubiak.



Interesting choice of verbiage, considering Spielman's comments about how the staff views some of the players. Kubiak has a long history of developing olines and getting big production out of RBs that weren't high draft pics (or drafted at all).

It is pretty entertaining how offended you are by the suggestion we could have players develop and thrive under Kubiaks system. Also entertaining is the fact you omit the 2021 draft pick at RB and include oline players which weren't part of my original post.

Sorry to disappoint but not offended at all.

I find it interesting that some posters believe / have faith, etc. – maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, I don't claim to know – that we will be fine at our weakest position (G) by promoting last year's backups or that we will be fine by replacing arguably our best offensive skill player with his back-ups.



What percentage of starters in the NFL were backups before becoming starters? Should we never think it's gonna work out? You should really talk to fans of the Patriots. They are replacing Brady with Hoyer/Stidham (back ups) and currently are the favorites (LV lines) to win their division. We are replacing Elf (terrible) and Kline (hurt/average).

Funny how you went from a Harry Potter reference to "I don't claim to know".

I don't know anything.

IMO LB Wilson, TE Smith, CBs Hughes and Hill have all earned legitimate shots to compete for a starting position. IMO DE Odenigbo is the only backup that has earned the right to be penciled in as a starter (part of this is Griffith moving on [if he does]) although that may just mean he's first in a rotational role. He will have competition.

Again, I like Mattison. IMO he's a solid starter on any team that doesn't have an upper echelon RB. He's a solid starter on any team that has an injured upper echelon RB. Therefore, he's an important piece of our offense. The question is not if he is ready to be a starter – he is – the question is, how much of a drop off do you get from Cook to Mattison. We have both stated our opinions.

I myself have not seen enough of Samia or Udoh or Collins to think they are better than Elflein or Klein. The team didn't think so last year.

We'll see. It's a well-known fact that debaters will often throw out Harry Potter references to disguise a lack of confidence in their point of view.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 6/10/2020 9:34:24 PM >
Post #: 1536
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2020 10:34:09 PM   
Pager


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I agree no one knows, including me. I also agree that last year they didn't think Samia/Udoh/Collins were better. Maybe what they saw in week 17 inspired confidence. Maybe seeing them progress in practice inspired confidence. I was as surprised as anyone when they cut Kline, but as telling as Kline starting over the youngsters, it could be as telling for the youngsters that they cut him. Collins has looked good for several years in practice and preseason games, and we've had several different coaches (prior to Kubiak) speak highly of him. I think he'd be established as a starter already if he had stayed healthy. But he could be out due to injury again in 2021.

We also have other options if the youngsters fail. Elf is an option and hopefully not a downgrade from his 2019 level. I would also say Jones has enough history and Dozier seemed to be at least replacement level. It's why I don't think our line will be worse and we still were a roughly top ten offense with a below average oline. Granted, replacing Diggs production is another new variable.

Cook is arguably our best offensive player. The post that started this discussion acknowledged it. I just don't think in a Kubiak offense, it would be a death knell if we went from Cook/Company to Company/Draft pick. Both groups would be running behind the same oline, if the offense dropped off, imo it wouldn't be because of the running backs.

< Message edited by Pager -- 6/10/2020 10:35:59 PM >


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Post #: 1537
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 1:08:17 AM   
ratoppenheimer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

I’m pretty sure we needed him against New Orleans as well, and he was pretty darn dynamic.

We need his explosiveness, after trading Diggs We are pretty low on playmakers that can blow the top off the defense.

That being said I’m not fond of paying him much north of $12mil. Seems to be a meet in the middle # to me.

I wait it out as long possible as we do actually have leverage.

I really like Cook (when healthy) but if it weren't for different names and numbers on their jersey it was real difficult to tell whom was carrying the football between Cook and Mattison.

I'm all for paying Cook gordon money but he has simply not earned bell cow money.


i would vote for letting him hold out for a fresh legged push the second half of this season and then select another rb with a trade up in the 3rd round next draft....

or, maybe make a deal with him now that we won't franchise tag him next year if he plays the 2020 entire season - maybe even double his salary this season for that deal....


You said no team would pay him north of 10 million...I think you're wrong. I'm sure no player in the history of the game would agree to what you're proposing. If it were even permissible which I'm sure it's not.

ESPN Breaking...Dalvin Cook agrees to double his 2020 contract to 3 million based on hopes and promises by the Vikings...

Come on man...



it's my understanding that they could renegotiate the fourth year of a rookie contract...i know it's outlandish, but i'm a deal maker - and i don't have the Vikes promising cook anything after 2020...also, i totally stand behind my $10m/yr assertion - what has the guy done but look great in ten games over three years?....

if i felt that we could get the dalvin cook of the first eight games of 2019 over the life of a contract then i'd pay him $10m/yr - but he's not that guy for more than half a season....



I like that you're a deal maker and if there were a way to renegotiate his 4th year salary that would be a no brainers.

And you did say you'd have the team with a handshake promise they wouldn't franchise tag him 2021...


when renegotiating cook's 2020/4th year deal i meant that it would be stipulated in the contract 'no tags' in 2021 - not a handshake...i'm pretty sure it's been done before....

elflein is making $2.1m this season and cook $1.3m - i guess he hasn't played enough to get that $2m bonus, which is somewhat telling...the fair thing to do might be to offer cook something like $5m for this season and revisit (no promises) the issue in 2021 - let all see what his market value is - this might seem like bullshit for cook, but if he holds out half the season then he'll be doing 8 games and playoffs for a little more than $650k, which is a real bullshit deal....

i think cook's people are bluffing right now - they know he hasn't done enough to warrant a north of $10m/yr deal...i think we're a better team with cook than without, but today i don't like the deal that cook's people are proposing....

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Post #: 1538
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 1:12:21 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9317
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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I feel selfish. Now I don't know the exact rules on holdouts, contracts tolling and all that but...if you simply asked me if I was willing to take a chance on losing Cook after he came in after half a season and through the playoffs at chump change 2020 money...I'd say yes.



are you saying you think that letting him play half a season at $650k and the losing him in 2021 is better than giving him a $12m/yr - multi-year deal today?....

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 1539
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 6:40:48 AM  2 votes
Bruce Johnson

 

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I'm very emotional this morning with an amazing story to share. Still in the hospital, but grateful to MN medicine
It was hard for me to write this, so please give me time to get up to speed.

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Post #: 1540
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 6:55:40 AM  2 votes
Todd M

 

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Atta boy Bruce! Everyone will be so glad to hear from you!
Post #: 1541
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 6:57:58 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 39781
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I feel selfish. Now I don't know the exact rules on holdouts, contracts tolling and all that but...if you simply asked me if I was willing to take a chance on losing Cook after he came in after half a season and through the playoffs at chump change 2020 money...I'd say yes.



are you saying you think that letting him play half a season at $650k and the losing him in 2021 is better than giving him a $12m/yr - multi-year deal today?....


I'm saying I'm nervous about committing to a new contract and I'm ok using his crazy fresh legs while he tries to get paid in 2021.

Also, for you forget altering his 4th year in any matter. Mon starer. New contract or nothing.
Post #: 1542
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 6:59:55 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9317
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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I'm very emotional this morning with an amazing story to share. Still in the hospital, but grateful to MN medicine
It was hard for me to write this, so please give me time to get up to speed.



great to hear from you...wow

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 1543
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 7:11:27 AM   
eagleflorida

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

I'm very emotional this morning with an amazing story to share. Still in the hospital, but grateful to MN medicine
It was hard for me to write this, so please give me time to get up to speed.


C'mon Bruce get with it....we're missing all your links.

j/k take your time & get well fast.
Post #: 1544
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 7:40:26 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

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I'm very happy to see your ok Bruce!!!

Many of us were quite worried.

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Post #: 1545
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 7:43:56 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

RBs with success under Kubiak (2nd round or lower) - 1000 yd seasons.

Terrell Davis - 6th Round
Arian Foster - UDFA
Olandis Gary - 4th Round
Mike Anderson - 6th Round
Steve Slaton - 3rd Round
Just Forsett - 7th Round

So yeah - I think with a 2021 drafted RB/Mattison/Boone I would absolutely trust Kubiak's offense.

Pretty sure the 2 best guys on that list (Davis & Foster) were given 2nd deals to stay with the team.

I think Spielman is just playing some hardball but has every intention of extending Cook.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1546
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 7:47:00 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

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Thank goodness! so glad you are feeling well enough to post Bruce.
Post #: 1547
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 7:57:04 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9317
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I feel selfish. Now I don't know the exact rules on holdouts, contracts tolling and all that but...if you simply asked me if I was willing to take a chance on losing Cook after he came in after half a season and through the playoffs at chump change 2020 money...I'd say yes.



are you saying you think that letting him play half a season at $650k and the losing him in 2021 is better than giving him a $12m/yr - multi-year deal today?....


I'm saying I'm nervous about committing to a new contract and I'm ok using his crazy fresh legs while he tries to get paid in 2021.

Also, for you forget altering his 4th year in any matter. Mon starer. New contract or nothing.


"All contracts for drafted rookies are now a mandatory four years in length and no such contract—even for young players who are dramatically undervalued—can be renegotiated until after three years have passed under the contract."...from a sports illustrated article

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 1548
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 8:02:54 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17845
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I feel selfish. Now I don't know the exact rules on holdouts, contracts tolling and all that but...if you simply asked me if I was willing to take a chance on losing Cook after he came in after half a season and through the playoffs at chump change 2020 money...I'd say yes.



are you saying you think that letting him play half a season at $650k and the losing him in 2021 is better than giving him a $12m/yr - multi-year deal today?....


I'm saying I'm nervous about committing to a new contract and I'm ok using his crazy fresh legs while he tries to get paid in 2021.

Also, for you forget altering his 4th year in any matter. Mon starer. New contract or nothing.


"All contracts for drafted rookies are now a mandatory four years in length and no such contract—even for young players who are dramatically undervalued—can be renegotiated until after three years have passed under the contract."...from a sports illustrated article

If a contract ext is given at the end of year 3. Does the 4th year remain intact and ext kick in after it? or is 4th year year on rookie deal null and void?

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1549
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2020 8:19:23 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

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Sounds like they're in discussions about removing 2 PS games so teams can get a full TC in.

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Post #: 1550
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