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RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:13:23 AM

Todd M

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If we sit at 14 and don't take OL, figuring we can piece together everything with 3rds or later, scrap FA's...it's going to take the steam right out of this off season. You don't take a bad unit, shed your decent starting LT and then leave it up to scraps...when you already have a poor track record.

I'd really like them to be smart...OL greatly outweighs anything else. Especially when you've already set up your defensive guru really nicely.

Post #: 1076

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:18:16 AM

Todd M

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I'd be smiling for days if they actually attacked the position. Trade a #1 next year to move up and grab one of the top 2 OL. WCS stay at 14 and take AVT.

Our #1 next year can get us to 7.

Post #: 1077

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:20:59 AM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

I would never fault any GM for taking a swing at who they believe is a QBOTF. I would fire him if he fails more than once. But I would have no issue with a QB being drafted.

Regardless of who is drafted, it would be foolish to play him. Cousins and the team is playing well, you don't put in your rookie QB. Team falling apart, the oline is part of the reason. Why rush him out there?

Only situation I consider it - .500 team at the midpoint, oline is playing much improved (from 28th in pass blocking to 15th) and you think the rook gives you a shot a playoffs. That's it.

I wouldn't fire him for taking the QB, I'd fire him for managing the team the way he has to keep it on a treadmill of mediocrity and then knocking us off the treadmill at full price. If this is what you want to do, don't pay big money to people like Barr, Rudy, Reiff, et al for the past few years. Throw your cards in and draw a new hand if that's what you're doing.

I've been calling out Spielman for team building for the last couple years. You'll get no argument from me there. Yannick was another terrible decision, trading a 2nd for a 3rd and using up precious cap. Coaching has contributed in a big way with in-season decisions.

There's not a snowball chance in hell that Vikings take a QB in the first. Famous last words. But I'll trade falling off the treadmill for a QBOTF any day. As it is, we've got to hope we have a draft like last year (with 3-4 contributors). That the oline comes together, Kubiak Jr is a good OC, and all the pieces on defense comes together. We could fall off the treadmill without drafting a QB this year.

If they did what you say above---move to mid-pack in pass pro---and the D optimizes its potential, they could be very good. Right now I don't see a path to that kind of pass pro improvement, so they will always struggle to win games when they are in clear passing situations.

Also Zim tends to really turtle when he gets a lead. Even a small one.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1078

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:22:35 AM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

If we sit at 14 and don't take OL, figuring we can piece together everything with 3rds or later, scrap FA's...it's going to take the steam right out of this off season. You don't take a bad unit, shed your decent starting LT and then leave it up to scraps...when you already have a poor track record.

I'd really like them to be smart...OL greatly outweighs anything else. Especially when you've already set up your defensive guru really nicely.

Amen

But don't be surprised when they don't do anything until said 3rd rd.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1079

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:28:42 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17834
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I'd be smiling for days if they actually attacked the position. Trade a #1 next year to move up and grab one of the top 2 OL. WCS stay at 14 and take AVT.

Our #1 next year can get us to 7.

In all seriousness it really makes sense to fortify this unit esp inside. You invested heavily in an immobile QB that is extremely suspect to inside pressure.

Spielman comes off to me as one of those guys that doesn't address obvious needs like he is so much smarter than everyone else. The oline has been garbage pretty much his entire tenure and quite honestly I don't expect that to change as long as he's in charge.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1080

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:41:19 AM

Todd M

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Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

Post #: 1081

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 7:43:43 AM

Todd M

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I'm firmly in the trade up to 7 camp.

To me it's a move that would show they get they're on the hot seat.

A right now let's contend for a championship move.

Post #: 1082

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:00:25 AM

Brad H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1083

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:05:32 AM

Todd M

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

I feel like there is so much context that could be put into what's going on the last 2 minutes. You're a stat guy...how do the top qb's in the league, when looking at other stats, fair in the last 2 minutes of a half stat?

Post #: 1084

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:18:09 AM

Brad H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

I feel like there is so much context that could be put into what's going on the last 2 minutes. You're a stat guy...how do the top qb's in the league, when looking at other stats, fair in the last 2 minutes of a half stat?

I agree, there is a lot that happens in the final two minutes of a half. Maybe it was bad plays from the sidelines. Maybe they don't have the right personnel. Perhaps it is a bad offensive philosophy.

Whatever the combination is, it isn't working. From an optics standpoint, he doesn't really seem to know what he is doing in the final two minutes. I don't see the leadership or the attention to detail.

A quarterback has to be in command the entire game. I don't see Cousins as a commander. When I watch guys like Mahomes, Wilson, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Allen, Roethlisberger, Watson, etc..., those guys are in total command from start to finish. Those are $33-million quarterbacks. When I watch Cousins, that's a $12-15-million quarterback.

It isn't all about the numbers to me. Some folks in here seem to only look at the numbers and see his final QB rating and think he's getting paid accordingly for his numbers. I don't see it that way. I look at body language, respect from the guys around him, leadership skills. He doesn't seem to have any of those things. The QB Rating in the final two minutes reflects all of those missing elements. When they need him to be a leader, he isn't.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 4/23/2021 8:23:58 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1085

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:24:46 AM

Hats4Bats

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A BIG NO to a QB in the 1st rd. A BIG YES to taking one 3rd rd or later.
Best available 3rd rd. on down WalterFootball.com

Kyle Trask, QB, Florida
Height: 6-5. Weight: 239.
Projected 40 Time: 4.8.
Projected Round (2021): 2-4.

Davis Mills, QB, Stanford
Height: 6-4. Weight: 214.
Projected 40 Time: 4.89.
Projected Round (2021): 3-5.

Kellen Mond, QB, Texas A&M (Steal in 3rd or 4th)
Height: 6-4. Weight: 225.
Projected 40 Time: 4.71.
Projected Round (2021): 3-5.

9. Jamie Newman, QB, Wake Forest (Intrigiung)
Height: 6-4. Weight: 230.
Projected 40 Time: 4.65.
Projected Round (2021): 4-6.

Feleipe Franks, QB, Arkansas
Height: 6-5. Weight: 227.
Projected 40 Time: 4.83.
Projected Round (2021): 5-7.

Peyton Ramsey, QB, Northwestern
Height: 6-2. Weight: 220.
Projected 40 Time: 4.77.
Projected Round (2021): 5-7.

Sam Ehlinger, QB, Texas
Height: 6-3. Weight: 230.
Projected 40 Time: 4.74.
Projected Round (2021): 5-7.

My rank:

Kellen Mond
Kyle Trask
Davis Mills
Jamie Newman
Shane Buechele
Sam Ehlinger
Ian Book

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Post #: 1086

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:25:10 AM

Todd M

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Fair points.

I just looked up some final 2 minute stats. All I could see is Cousins being not good vs the other top QB's in the league.

Maybe you're right about his leadership and poise. Guess I'm hoping the chips aren't down and he can simply deliver...bc I do feel he has the skill.

Saying that...I'd take the guy with leadership and poise. Heart
...if that's definable.

< Message edited by Todd M -- 4/23/2021 8:27:45 AM >

Post #: 1087

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:30:08 AM

Todd M

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quote:

A BIG NO to a QB in the 1st rd. A BIG YES to taking one 3rd rd or later.

100%.

We have literally nothing beyond Cousins.

Weak camp arms.

Post #: 1088

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:30:22 AM

Brad H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Fair points.

I just looked up some finslwl 2 minute stats. All I could see is Cousins being not good vs the other top QB's in the league.

Maybe you're right about his leadership and poise. Guess I'm hoping the chips aren't down and he can simply deliver...bc I do feel he has the skill.

Saying that...is take the guy with leadership and poise. Heart
...if that's definable.

I would say Cousins has some of the skills. He throws a nice deep ball. Fairly accurate throwing the ball. But he's a long ways from a complete package. The numbers can only show so much.

You ever watch the guy on the sidelines? It's like he is on an island. Most times I see nobody around him. Rarely do I see him breaking down plays on a tablet in between possessions. The body language is not there. The optics are bad.

That is just what I see. Maybe others see differently.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 4/23/2021 8:32:24 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 1089

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:56:46 AM

bohumm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

If we sit at 14 and don't take OL, figuring we can piece together everything with 3rds or later, scrap FA's...it's going to take the steam right out of this off season. You don't take a bad unit, shed your decent starting LT and then leave it up to scraps...when you already have a poor track record.

I'd really like them to be smart...OL greatly outweighs anything else. Especially when you've already set up your defensive guru really nicely.

And the "decent" LT was our best performer last year, along with O'Neill.

What we really should have done is address the gap with at least modest FA signings/trades so we would be free to go BPA, since we may see a true stud available at 14 that we'll have to pass on because we have career back-ups at 40% of our OL. That includes LT, and it also gives a pass to two starters who were horrible last year in pass pro but good in run blocking.

Post #: 1090

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 8:58:03 AM

Pauldiercks1

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I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.

That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Post #: 1091

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:02:11 AM

bohumm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Post #: 1092

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:14:57 AM

Brad H

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 4/23/2021 9:18:28 AM >

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Post #: 1093

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:15:21 AM

marty

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These plays where the OL is horrendous, and "nobody is open", put Brady in at QB, and suddenly the ball is getting out quickly, hitting a WR between the numbers, even though he looks covered.

Check out TB before Brady, there were probably plenty of Bucs' fans that felt that Winston just needed a better OL. A little more time to throw, and playcalls where a WR is always clearly open.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 1094

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:21:10 AM

Todd M

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.

That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

Post #: 1095

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:25:02 AM

Brad H

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From: Parts Unknown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.

That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

I see Cousins as a guy robbing me of my inalienable right to see a Super Bowl Champion before I croak.

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RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:36:08 AM

Daniel Lee Young

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You can’t unearth a “ diamond in the rough” @ any position, let alone QB,

If you are pawing thru a trash heap of rubbish that other GM’s and ownership,... noped.. out of.

Cousins was thought to be the answer to Keemun, who was the answer for Bradford, who was the answer for Bridgewater, who was the answer for Ponder, ad nausea.....

Of all that history...
And I am Deliberatly ignoring Favrey, Bridgewater was probably the better option than the path this franchise took.

Yea they could have held onto Bridgewater, did a modest rehab based incentive laden extension and we woul not be in cap hell, with Cousins owning 23% of the cap.

Draft a QB, anywhere from 3 on down...

Seriously.

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Post #: 1097

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:50:23 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44300
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

1. Nobody is mistaking Cousins for Mahomes
2. Until late injury forced Remmers into the starting lineup for the Sperbowl, Mahomes' was still better than the Vikings
3. Nobody is mistaking Cousins for Wilson
4. Wilson's Superbowl winning O-line was nowhere near as bad as the Vikings last year.

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Post #: 1098

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:54:08 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44300
Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

These plays where the OL is horrendous, and "nobody is open", put Brady in at QB, and suddenly the ball is getting out quickly, hitting a WR between the numbers, even though he looks covered.

Check out TB before Brady, there were probably plenty of Bucs' fans that felt that Winston just needed a better OL. A little more time to throw, and playcalls where a WR is always clearly open.

Again, why is the standard always the GOAT? There is only one Brady. You can make the same statement comparing almost any other starting QB in football to Brady.

_____________________________

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RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/23/2021 9:54:34 AM

bohumm

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From: Altadena, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

I will stipulate that Kirk isn't either of those guys, not in talent, effectiveness, nor style of play. All the better reason to get him real help with the rush coming unabated right up the gut instead of taking a flyer on a suspect QB prospect who may or may not be as good as Kirk in a year or two.

Post #: 1100