quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

These plays where the OL is horrendous, and "nobody is open", put Brady in at QB, and suddenly the ball is getting out quickly, hitting a WR between the numbers, even though he looks covered.

Check out TB before Brady, there were probably plenty of Bucs' fans that felt that Winston just needed a better OL. A little more time to throw, and playcalls where a WR is always clearly open.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.


That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

I see Cousins as a guy robbing me of my inalienable right to see a Super Bowl Champion before I croak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.


That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

1. Nobody is mistaking Cousins for Mahomes
2. Until late injury forced Remmers into the starting lineup for the Sperbowl, Mahomes' was still better than the Vikings
3. Nobody is mistaking Cousins for Wilson
4. Wilson's Superbowl winning O-line was nowhere near as bad as the Vikings last year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

I will stipulate that Kirk isn't either of those guys, not in talent, effectiveness, nor style of play. All the better reason to get him real help with the rush coming unabated right up the gut instead of taking a flyer on a suspect QB prospect who may or may not be as good as Kirk in a year or two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.


That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

Look at the rookie deal as much more than three years. The rookie deal, and the second deal, that doesn't hit the cap hard for the first few years. By the time the QB hits the back end of the second deal it is much more difficult with the cap.

Cousins huge deal added with his shortcomings is making it tough. I'm sure some here can explain it better but that's how I see it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

I will stipulate that Kirk isn't either of those guys, not in talent, effectiveness, nor style of play. All the better reason to get him real help with the rush coming unabated right up the gut instead of taking a flyer on a suspect QB prospect who may or may not be as good as Kirk in a year or two.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the same conversation we had in here 12 months ago, 24 months ago and 36 months ago. Spielman doesn't give Cousins help and Cousins doesn't have what it takes to do it on his own. Great players make those around them better. If they can't get better, he needs to adapt and play a different style.

How about better preparation at the line so he can get rid of the ball quicker? How about working on speed and agility during the off-season? How about continuous workouts with your wide receivers during the off-season so you are on the same page?

At $33-million a year, he should be the first guy in the building and turning off the lights at the end of the day. That's what the players around him need to see.

At some point the Vikings fans have to take an honest look at the guy under center. Every season ends with fans in an uproar over his play. By the middle of the spring they always seem to suffer from amnesia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

I will stipulate that Kirk isn't either of those guys, not in talent, effectiveness, nor style of play. All the better reason to get him real help with the rush coming unabated right up the gut instead of taking a flyer on a suspect QB prospect who may or may not be as good as Kirk in a year or two.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the same conversation we had in here 12 months ago, 24 months ago and 36 months ago. Spielman doesn't give Cousins help and Cousins doesn't have what it takes to do it on his own. Great players make those around them better. If they can't get better, he needs to adapt and play a different style.

How about better preparation at the line so he can get rid of the ball quicker? How about working on speed and agility during the off-season? How about continuous workouts with your wide receivers during the off-season so you are on the same page?

At $33-million a year, he should be the first guy in the building and turning off the lights at the end of the day. That's what the players around him need to see.

At some point the Vikings fans have to take an honest look at the guy under center. Every season ends with fans in an uproar over his play. By the middle of the spring they always seem to suffer from amnesia.

Kirk Cousins is not a great player. He does his job well enough to win if everything around him checks out. The Vikings believe that with a great defense (which they don't have) and a great run game (which they kind of do have, but it depends on what you mean by "great") he is good enough to win a championship. I agree to the extent that the D and run game are beyond great and everything else is at least OK, but I don't think that any of these are true. Further, I would not take this approach because I think that all of this coming together just so is extremely unlikely. The better approach is to embrace the modern era and pass the ball and defend the pass. I would not have traded for Bradford, which is what all of this winds back to.

That said, $33M for a good but not great QB is the market. One can make the case that if you don't have a great QB you should not have a good one for the exact scenario we see playing out with the Vikings. Keep throwing back the medium and small fish until you get the whopper.

If you choose to keep Cousins, which the Vikings have and will for the next two seasons at a full guarantee, you can't have three of the worst pass blockers in the NFL as your IOL (which the Vikings currently do), nor can you hope to address the deficiency in the third round or beyond. I give a slight pass on Hill because, though he's a career back-up, he's at least replacement level.

But to have a horrendous OL one year and make it worse going into the draft is lunacy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Draft OL early and often.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

I don't look at stats much at all I simply go but what I see and what my gut tells me.

I agree with almost all of what Brad says on Cousins.

He's a QB that can do some nice things but he fails when you need him most to step up. Honestly if we were in a SB I would expect him to take half the game to settle down and struggle bad at the end if it was close.
He's missing something that is required in a QB. There is a leadership quality he has not taken on.


That's why I would have no issue taking a QB this year vs heavy o-line. If you have a chance at a QB you really like, that trumps every other position hands down ten times over. If you hit on a QB there are huge advantages to a team in having a QB on a rookie deal

Having a rookie deal at QB isn't all that's it's made out to be imo. If he's THE guy then forget about it...but anything less and you're looking at 3 years before you have to make a huge commitment. 2 years of playing if we take one and he sits behind Cousins for a year.

I say stick it out with Cousins, hope to unearth a diamond in the rough, keep KC if he'll sign on for no more than 30 per or else keep the other units strong and find a safe journeyman that won't break the bank. I'd be fine with a decent/ok guy for 20 mil than what a 2nd contract is going to be in 3, 4 years for QB. We should be doing that now or the last few years.

I see Cousins as a guy robbing me of my inalienable right to see a Super Bowl Champion before I croak.

And who was robbing you all of the decades before Cousins got here? For that matter, who will continue to rob us after he is gone?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Call Cousins what you want but few could argue his arm talent. If we do ONE thing...right now...and reduce the pressure our QB faces we could be contenders. He's put up good #'s facing the pressure he has but it could be so much cleaner and smoother.

The #30 QB Rating in the last two minutes of halves. That's what Cousins is, and that ain't good enough to win anything important.

Did you watch any games? He was fine against Dallas; JJ had an in-stride drop that would have yielded a first and much more, and at least one playcall featured a route where no one was available before pressure arrived. Against Tennessee the OL collapsed over and over, and he had an INT on a desperation 4th down where no one was open.

Kirk isn't great, but he's protected by horrendous. He's good enough if you surround him with at least adequate protection and the defense is stellar, which it hasn't been.

Pat Mahomes had horrid protection and he was in the Super Bowl. Russell Wilson won a Super Bowl with a horrid offensive line. I agree the offensive line is not very good, but the guy has no moxie whatsoever to overcome other deficiencies in the offense. Glaciers move quicker when pressured.

I will stipulate that Kirk isn't either of those guys, not in talent, effectiveness, nor style of play. All the better reason to get him real help with the rush coming unabated right up the gut instead of taking a flyer on a suspect QB prospect who may or may not be as good as Kirk in a year or two.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is the same conversation we had in here 12 months ago, 24 months ago and 36 months ago. Spielman doesn't give Cousins help and Cousins doesn't have what it takes to do it on his own. Great players make those around them better. If they can't get better, he needs to adapt and play a different style.

How about better preparation at the line so he can get rid of the ball quicker? How about working on speed and agility during the off-season? How about continuous workouts with your wide receivers during the off-season so you are on the same page?

At $33-million a year, he should be the first guy in the building and turning off the lights at the end of the day. That's what the players around him need to see.

At some point the Vikings fans have to take an honest look at the guy under center. Every season ends with fans in an uproar over his play. By the middle of the spring they always seem to suffer from amnesia.

Kirk Cousins is not a great player. He does his job well enough to win if everything around him checks out. The Vikings believe that with a great defense (which they don't have) and a great run game (which they kind of do have, but it depends on what you mean by "great") he is good enough to win a championship. I agree to the extent that the D and run game are beyond great and everything else is at least OK, but I don't think that any of these are true. Further, I would not take this approach because I think that all of this coming together just so is extremely unlikely. The better approach is to embrace the modern era and pass the ball and defend the pass. I would not have traded for Bradford, which is what all of this winds back to.

That said, $33M for a good but not great QB is the market. One can make the case that if you don't have a great QB you should not have a good one for the exact scenario we see playing out with the Vikings. Keep throwing back the medium and small fish until you get the whopper.

If you choose to keep Cousins, which the Vikings have and will for the next two seasons at a full guarantee, you can't have three of the worst pass blockers in the NFL as your IOL (which the Vikings currently do), nor can you hope to address the deficiency in the third round or beyond. I give a slight pass on Hill because, though he's a career back-up, he's at least replacement level.

But to have a horrendous OL one year and make it worse going into the draft is lunacy.

It depends on your philosophy. If you aren't going to win now, isn't it time to start looking towards the future? That's a lot to digest for fans HOPING for a miracle. I understand. But continuously kicking the can down the road in the name of HOPE is also lunacy, IMO.

12 months from now we will be sitting in the exact same place. The difference will be, it will be 12 months later. I'd rather start that process this weekend with the draft rather than waiting for the inevitable.

Vikings fans need to quit lying to themselves every April about Cousins. He's just a guy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

You can’t unearth a “ diamond in the rough” @ any position, let alone QB,

If you are pawing thru a trash heap of rubbish that other GM’s and ownership,... noped.. out of.

Cousins was thought to be the answer to Keemun, who was the answer for Bradford, who was the answer for Bridgewater, who was the answer for Ponder, ad nausea.....

Of all that history...
And I am Deliberatly ignoring Favrey, Bridgewater was probably the better option than the path this franchise took.

Yea they could have held onto Bridgewater, did a modest rehab based incentive laden extension and we woul not be in cap hell, with Cousins owning 23% of the cap.

Draft a QB, anywhere from 3 on down...

Seriously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

Has anyone thought about picking Leatherwood with our first pick? We could probably move down a few spots to get him. He won the Outland this season, and was ranked as the second best OT in college. Plus, he was on a team who won the whole thing. I wouldn't be upset if we picked him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty


And who was robbing you all of the decades before Cousins got here? For that matter, who will continue to rob us after he is gone?

So a combination of bad QBs and QBs that couldn't get it done, now leaves some of us so happy with mediocrity and a high contract, to the point where they don't think we should even dream of better QB play, coming from a 1st round draft pick ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

Has anyone thought about picking Leatherwood with our first pick? We could probably move down a few spots to get him. He won the Outland this season, and was ranked as the second best OT in college. Plus, he was on a team who won the whole thing. I wouldn't be upset if we picked him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

Has anyone thought about picking Leatherwood with our first pick? We could probably move down a few spots to get him. He won the Outland this season, and was ranked as the second best OT in college. Plus, he was on a team who won the whole thing. I wouldn't be upset if we picked him.

And he played G at Alabama one year. He also lined up at G in Alabama's first big test in the championship game, a 4th and goal. They ran behind him. Result was a TD. He seems to be mocked in the late 20s or 30s.

While he is a T, he's got a somewhat more equal to lower center of gravity and basically man strength.

I would be super happy if we get him, but with nowhere near a pick in the teens. Unless a bunch of GMs know better than the mockers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Adam Schefter@AdamSchefter

Kansas City gets:
-OT Orlando Brown
-2021 second-round pick (No. 58)
-2022 6th round pick.

Baltimore gets:
-2021 first-round pick (No. 31)
-third-round pick (No. 94)
-fourth-round pick (No. 136)
-2022 fifth-round pick