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RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 10:08:15 AM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
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From: Las Vegas
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The other thing to remember about Watson is he has a no-trade clause.

He'd have to want to come here. So basically Zimmer would have to sell him on us making an offensive philosophy change.

Post #: 551

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 10:41:41 AM

TJSweens

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The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is not a GM with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 2/3/2021 10:50:41 AM >

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Post #: 552

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 10:45:17 AM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is a guy with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Sad thing is all we'd have to do is replace Zimmer with Bieniemy and we'd shoot up to #1 on Watson's wish list.

Post #: 553

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 10:49:45 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is a guy with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Sad thing is all we'd have to do is replace Zimmer with Bieniemy and we'd shoot up to #1 on Watson's wish list.

so Win-Win-Win

Post #: 554

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 11:04:56 AM

marty

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It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

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Post #: 555

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 11:14:38 AM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

Post #: 556

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 11:50:26 AM

Pauldiercks1

Posts: 241
Joined: 2/1/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Garoppolo. You must be thinking of Janeane.

Garoppolo wouldn't ease our cap situation. Even if we wait until June, trading Cousins will saddle us with $21 million in dead cap money.

Well, 21 is better than 41....

Just sayin

But it was probably a bad idea anyway.

21 is better than 41, but you still have to pay Garoppolo on top of it.

So Watson makes even less sense.

Except Watson is a stud that, if he stays healthy, gives you a Top QB for the next decade.

You make room for guys like that.

Exactly. A great QB (90% of a winning formula)is the one position in football you normally cannot buy. Any other position you can buy good players. So what we are screwed with the cap for possibly two years. You do what you have to do to improve your QB situation if you are serious about winning the SB.
He is young enough you have to make that move if you feel the opportunity realistically is there. IMO

Post #: 557

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 12:16:18 PM

Pauldiercks1

Posts: 241
Joined: 2/1/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

I feel a great QB is far more important than a great coach. I'm sure many very good coaches would love to hop over to Kansas City if given the opportunity. to look like a genius.
If a coach can manage players/coaches and adapt to the changing game with the ability to surround themselves with assistants that do the same they can do very well. I like Zimmer but feel he is past his time, he is old school, and stubborn to adapt. I think he manages some players well and he also loses players at times.

Post #: 558

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 12:20:05 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

I feel a great QB is far more important than a great coach. I'm sure many very good coaches would love to hop over to Kansas City if given the opportunity. to look like a genius.
If a coach can manage players/coaches and adapt to the changing game with the ability to surround themselves with assistants that do the same they can do very well. I like Zimmer but feel he is past his time, he is old school, and stubborn to adapt. I think he manages some players well and he also loses players at times.

100%.

They've pushed the rules so much to favor passing that there is nothing in the NFL even close to the value of a QB.

That said, poor coaching can absolutely handicap even the best QBs. As great as Mahomes is (and from a pure talent standpoint, he may be the GOAT), they don't win the SB last year without some amazing offensive coaching.

Post #: 559

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 12:24:16 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9562
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is a guy with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Sad thing is all we'd have to do is replace Zimmer with Bieniemy and we'd shoot up to #1 on Watson's wish list.

You are correct - this is the moment to give up on zimmer....

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Post #: 560

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 1:26:58 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is not a GM with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Not exactly true....just a few posts ago the 4 picks were rated higher than we drafted. He also had the vision to grab Jared Allen at a pretty high expense.

Trading away Diggs for two picks and turning one into JJeff deserves credit. Yes he likes his 7th round picks but he did hit on 4 higher round picks in 2020 (even with less information).

With Jefferson and Thielen.....I bet Watson would not have an issue coming here.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 2/3/2021 1:34:04 PM >

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Post #: 561

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 1:41:39 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45016
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is not a GM with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Not exactly true....just a few posts ago the 4 picks were rated higher than we drafted. He also had the vision to grab Jared Allen at a pretty high expense.

Trading away Diggs for two picks and turning one into JJeff deserves credit. Yes he likes his 7th round picks but he did hit on 4 higher round picks in 2020 (even with less information).

With Jefferson and Thielen.....I bet Watson would not have an issue coming here.

The fact that he made good value picks in the first rounds last year has nothing to do with being bold. He traded Diggs because he was forced to trade Diggs. Allen was not that bold given his age.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 562

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 2:15:48 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is not a GM with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Not exactly true....just a few posts ago the 4 picks were rated higher than we drafted. He also had the vision to grab Jared Allen at a pretty high expense.

Trading away Diggs for two picks and turning one into JJeff deserves credit. Yes he likes his 7th round picks but he did hit on 4 higher round picks in 2020 (even with less information).

With Jefferson and Thielen.....I bet Watson would not have an issue coming here.

The fact that he made good value picks in the first rounds last year has nothing to do with being bold. He traded Diggs because he was forced to trade Diggs. Allen was not that bold given his age.

A first and 2 thirds for Allen wasn't bold (he had been in some trouble also). Trading Diggs and getting JJefferson with one of the picks isn't bold? I disagree.

Rick has been bold at times (Case Keenum signing).

Signing Joseph, Reiff, Pierce were all bold moves....but he was in a bad spot and in essence bailed himself out (except on the Pierce move). He has been bold on his trades and on most of the FA signings.....

As much as posters bitch...he has kept the talent level on the team really high.

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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 563

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 2:23:30 PM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

No. Allen was 25 and one the top pass rushers in football. A first and two thirds at that time did not require a lot of bravery.

No. Diggs forced the trade. I wouldn't call someone bold for caving in and moving a disgruntled player who was determined to make life miserable until he was dealt.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 564

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 2:26:07 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Rick has been bold at times (Case Keenum signing).

How is signing a back-up QB to a 1 year, 2M contract bold? He didn't sign him to start - the only reason he played was Bradford got hurt.

Was signing Sean Mannion to a 1-year deal a bold move?

quote:

Signing Joseph, Reiff, Pierce were all bold moves....but he was in a bad spot and in essence bailed himself out (except on the Pierce move). He has been bold on his trades and on most of the FA signings.....

Those aren't bold moves either. Those are the types of moves that every team makes every year.

Drafting players and signing free agents aren't inherantly "bold moves". They're a job description..

Post #: 565

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 3:25:02 PM

thebigo

Posts: 28302
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

So very Zimmer like

Post #: 566

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 3:52:03 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

So very Zimmer like

I guess you could say Zimmer is a "poor man's Ariens".

Although with the way the game is today, I'll take an offensive-minded HC over a defensive-minded one.

Post #: 567

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 4:18:34 PM

Todd M

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Joined: 7/14/2007
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You know...Watson may not be our starting QB next year for reasons other than Spielman's lack of balls or boldness.

Post #: 568

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 4:22:05 PM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

You know...Watson may not be our starting QB next year for reasons other than Spielman's lack of balls or boldness.

Nobody is disputing that. Nobody is saying Watson would be here next year if not for Spielman's empty ball sack. Just saying Spielman's history as a GM / President of Football Operations indicates this is not a move he has the stones to make.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 569

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 4:35:38 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77938
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From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

You know...Watson may not be our starting QB next year for reasons other than Spielman's lack of balls or boldness.

Right.

Like if we collectively don't wish hard enough for it to happen.

Post #: 570

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 4:36:20 PM

thebigo

Posts: 28302
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

You know...Watson may not be our starting QB next year for reasons other than Spielman's lack of balls or boldness.

Nobody is disputing that. Nobody is saying Watson would be here next year if not for Spielman's empty ball sack. Just saying Spielman's history as a GM / President of Football Operations indicates this is not a move he has the stones to make.

So we're saying that if all "non Spielman ball sack" factors required to obtain Watson were in place, we still would not get him due to Spielman's empty ball sack.

Post #: 571

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 6:44:22 PM

Bruce Johnson

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The Pittsburgh Steelers have signed former #Vikings OL Aviante Collins to a futures deal. He's officially moving on.

Purple Post on Twitter

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Post #: 572

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 8:14:29 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

It is probably harder to get the right franchise QB, than it is to get the right HC. If you think Watson can bring a ring, go get him.

I now worry less about the right HC than I did in the past. Is Bruce Arians now a genius, and Belichick lacking as a HC, or does the QB make a little difference?

Bruce Arians has always been a very good coach.

He was the OC in Pittsburgh for 2 SBs.

He won 62% of his games with Arizona.

He's had Top 5 offenses and defenses in Arizona.

I feel a great QB is far more important than a great coach. I'm sure many very good coaches would love to hop over to Kansas City if given the opportunity. to look like a genius.
If a coach can manage players/coaches and adapt to the changing game with the ability to surround themselves with assistants that do the same they can do very well. I like Zimmer but feel he is past his time, he is old school, and stubborn to adapt. I think he manages some players well and he also loses players at times.

100%.

They've pushed the rules so much to favor passing that there is nothing in the NFL even close to the value of a QB.

That said, poor coaching can absolutely handicap even the best QBs. As great as Mahomes is (and from a pure talent standpoint, he may be the GOAT), they don't win the SB last year without some amazing offensive coaching.

A dynamic TE and a pair of wr's that are simply faster than any db really helps.

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Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 573

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 8:17:06 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17928
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

The bottom line is that Watson isn't coming here because Spielman is not bold enough to make the necessary moves to get him here.

Pay the capital in picks and players to satisfy Houston
Shed the contracts necessary to fit Watson's extension
Make the coaching and philosophy changes necessary to satisfy Watson

Spielman is a guy who concedes draft position to get a higher volume of picks in hopes of hitting on one or two of those late round picks. That is not a GM with enough vision to do what it takes to get his guy.

Not exactly true....just a few posts ago the 4 picks were rated higher than we drafted. He also had the vision to grab Jared Allen at a pretty high expense.

Trading away Diggs for two picks and turning one into JJeff deserves credit. Yes he likes his 7th round picks but he did hit on 4 higher round picks in 2020 (even with less information).

With Jefferson and Thielen.....I bet Watson would not have an issue coming here.

I think there maybe something wrong with Watson mentally.

he has the NYJ at the top of his list.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 574

RE: General Vikes Talk - 2/3/2021 9:52:59 PM

marty

Posts: 13047
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

I agree with you Bill, that doesn't seem right. It would be nice to know the reasons. This makes adds some skepticism as far as wanting him as a Viking, and durability could be a concern.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 575