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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 9:55:58 AM

Murph

Posts: 2030
Joined: 4/20/2008
From: PNW
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Trade JJ and move up in the draft for the guy they want. Start him.

If you are going to go with a rookie QB... give him a chance with a strong receiving corp.

If that is the plan (and I'd love to see it), I'd keep JJ.

JJ at the dominant #1, Addision playing the #2 or slot and you make it much easier for the QB to grow.

While the value is difficult to know, people don't address what you could get in return for trading JJ. Picks and players seems reasonable. No guarantees, but a young QB could benefit from:

- Shoring up the IOL with a proven player.
- A 1st round WR to pair with Let's Get Paid.
- $30-35 million in annual cap to use on another IOL player and elsewhere.
- A versatile RB.

I don't know if Kwesi and Brez can pull this off but this would be my plan if feasible:

Let Cousins walk

Trade O'Neill

Sign: Jefferson, Darrisaw and Hunter, all without no trade clauses. I know he's more expensive but I'd prefer Hunter to Cousins and O'Neill

Trade up in the first for QB

_____________________________

Hey Wilf's, let's build a "Perennial Super Bowl contender" not a "perennial playoff contender".

Post #: 5551

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 10:04:41 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28969
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Trade JJ and move up in the draft for the guy they want. Start him.

If you are going to go with a rookie QB... give him a chance with a strong receiving corp.

If that is the plan (and I'd love to see it), I'd keep JJ.

JJ at the dominant #1, Addision playing the #2 or slot and you make it much easier for the QB to grow.

While the value is difficult to know, people don't address what you could get in return for trading JJ. Picks and players seems reasonable. No guarantees, but a young QB could benefit from:

- Shoring up the IOL with a proven player.
- A 1st round WR to pair with Let's Get Paid.
- $30-35 million in annual cap to use on another IOL player and elsewhere.
- A versatile RB.

I don't know if Kwesi and Brez can pull this off but this would be my plan if feasible:

Let Cousins walk

Trade O'Neill

Sign: Jefferson, Darrisaw and Hunter, all without no trade clauses. I know he's more expensive but I'd prefer Hunter to Cousins and O'Neill

Trade up in the first for QB

Yeah, O'Neill is going to cost $24 million in each of the next three years. Part of that is due to I think a couple of renegotiations to allow the team to get more cap, but it's basically a later-year Spielman contract.

Post #: 5552

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 10:16:58 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28969
Status: offline

O'Neill basically gets 10% of the cap the next three years.

He's certainly valuable but has regressed in penalties and sacks allowed since his best season in 2021.

Post #: 5553

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 10:36:13 AM

jbusse

Posts: 1309
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

O'Neill basically gets 10% of the cap the next three years.

He's certainly valuable but has regressed in penalties and sacks allowed since his best season in 2021.

Seems reasonable. For, say, 25 starter types (22 plus another CB, WR, etc.), average would get 4% of cap. Got to have some good drafts to balance off those expensive players with solid, low-price, first contract players plus a bunch of cheap replacement level types. I assume Kwesi's analytics team has run the numbers.

Post #: 5554

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 10:41:51 AM

marty

Posts: 13089
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

It fn sucks that management and “ Marty” thinks chasing the shiny Wr or DE or RB or DB or IOL is the key to getting out of the 63 and counting rut…

Dan, I have no idea why you're misrepresenting my position. I have stated several times that QB is the most important position, and that I would trade JJ or Hunter, and a future 1st round pick to move up in the draft to get a QB.

I was excited about Caleb Williams, until he lost several games, but his defense doesn't help him much. It sounds like there are several good prospects this year.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5555

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 12:51:53 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19527
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Hmmm
Opinion
Now
Did I pass?

Nope. You're a Vikings fan so you ran it up the gut for no gain

Post #: 5556

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 1:22:09 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Hmmm
Opinion
Now
Did I pass?

Nope. You're a Vikings fan so you ran it up the gut for no gain

ha ha. Good one!

If Mattison only would of popped one of those for 6 yards it'd of been a quiet week

Post #: 5557

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/2/2023 2:56:01 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40956
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Great line, Jesser.

_____________________________

The ego holds on to pain from the past to prevent pain in the future, which causes pain in the present.

Keith Crossley

Post #: 5558

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 8:48:16 AM

Brad H

Posts: 23070
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Trade JJ and move up in the draft for the guy they want. Start him.

If you are going to go with a rookie QB... give him a chance with a strong receiving corp.

If that is the plan (and I'd love to see it), I'd keep JJ.

JJ at the dominant #1, Addision playing the #2 or slot and you make it much easier for the QB to grow.

While the value is difficult to know, people don't address what you could get in return for trading JJ. Picks and players seems reasonable. No guarantees, but a young QB could benefit from:

- Shoring up the IOL with a proven player.
- A 1st round WR to pair with Let's Get Paid.
- $30-35 million in annual cap to use on another IOL player and elsewhere.
- A versatile RB.

I don't know if Kwesi and Brez can pull this off but this would be my plan if feasible:

Let Cousins walk

Trade O'Neill

Sign: Jefferson, Darrisaw and Hunter, all without no trade clauses. I know he's more expensive but I'd prefer Hunter to Cousins and O'Neill

Trade up in the first for QB

This could end up being one of the great quarterback classes of all times. No need to move up that far.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 12/3/2023 8:52:33 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 5559

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 10:20:02 AM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19527
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels

I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Post #: 5560

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 3:34:18 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12223
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels

I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Nix
Penix
Ewers

That's my order right now. I've see Penix a few times lately. Not sure about the side arm delivery.

McCarthy has a cannon. Underrated because Michigan doesn't pass much.

Post #: 5561

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 10:33:57 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Hard to find a worse no call than the non-called PI on GB on the play at the :50 mark.

Crazy they let that stuff go.

Post #: 5562

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 10:41:04 PM

marty

Posts: 13089
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Is that the Lambeau advantage, or was it a makeup no call because the Chiefs shouldn't have gotten the earlier PI on the drive, nor the hit in bounds on Mahomes ?

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5563

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/3/2023 11:02:19 PM

Ricky J

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Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

The hit on 15 isn't in the same league as the PI on 11

Post #: 5564

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 1:49:41 AM

marty

Posts: 13089
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Agreed Ricky.

Had each team had 1 challenge for no calls, or judgement calls, they likely would have overturned the hit in bounds on Mahomes. But had KC gotten off a similar pass (and interference) to what they got later in the drive, then KC would have gotten a 1st down in the red zone.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5565

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 1:53:17 AM

marty

Posts: 13089
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Now if the Vikings had that 1 challenge for no calls or judgement calls when they played the Chiefs, they could have challenged on the Vikings last offensive play, where there was arguably a foul on the hit on the QB, pass Interference, and the defender could have been flagged for taking off his helmet.

Any one of those give the Vikings a 1st down in the red zone, with plenty of time left on the clock.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 5566

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 8:58:54 AM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

Post #: 5567

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 9:11:03 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19905
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

Post #: 5568

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 9:32:36 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28969
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

Post #: 5569

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 10:03:26 AM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

No reason at all unless you just want to inflict some hurt on the guy. He was a half a step from his foot touching out of bounds. The more you slow it down the more it looks like, He wasn't even out of bounds!

Post #: 5570

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 10:39:10 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19905
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

No reason at all unless you just want to inflict some hurt on the guy. He was a half a step from his foot touching out of bounds. The more you slow it down the more it looks like, He wasn't even out of bounds!

I think stopping him from getting a first down is plenty of reason. Might as well play flag football.

Post #: 5571

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 10:41:07 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19905
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.

Post #: 5572

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:04:47 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28969
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.

By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Post #: 5573

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:07:20 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19905
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.

By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Agreed. You can't help it if the refs call silly stuff. But also let's not pretend the Chiefs got all the calls. That last play looked like a bad push in the back even by hail Mary standards.

Post #: 5574

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:11:47 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28969
Status: offline

Then there are the PI rules whereby as long as the defender just turns his head back towards the QB he can pretty much do whatever he wants to the receiver. Another judgement type rule they've created.

Post #: 5575