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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:13:19 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.


Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.


By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Agreed. You can't help it if the refs call silly stuff. But also let's not pretend the Chiefs got all the calls. That last play looked like a bad push in the back even by hail Mary standards.


I'm not pretending anything re who got the calls. But am saying whenever a QB, especially Pat Mahomes, is basically at the sidelines and he is hit hard, then there is a good chance a flag will come flying.

The Hail Mary's are a free for all, always have been.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 12/4/2023 11:16:14 AM >
Post #: 5576
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:26:34 AM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.


Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.


By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Agreed. You can't help it if the refs call silly stuff. But also let's not pretend the Chiefs got all the calls. That last play looked like a bad push in the back even by hail Mary standards.


I'm not pretending anything re who got the calls. But am saying whenever a QB, especially Pat Mahomes, is basically at the sidelines and he is hit hard, then there is a good chance a flag will come flying.

The Hail Mary's are a free for all, always have been.

I wasn't inferring anything about you Bill. Just didn't want the narrative to be the Packers got screwed. They didn't in my view. I think they'll take the trade off of the sideline call and the hail Mary shove no call.
Post #: 5577
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:31:00 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.


Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.


By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Agreed. You can't help it if the refs call silly stuff. But also let's not pretend the Chiefs got all the calls. That last play looked like a bad push in the back even by hail Mary standards.


I'm not pretending anything re who got the calls. But am saying whenever a QB, especially Pat Mahomes, is basically at the sidelines and he is hit hard, then there is a good chance a flag will come flying.

The Hail Mary's are a free for all, always have been.

I wasn't inferring anything about you Bill. Just didn't want the narrative to be the Packers got screwed. They didn't in my view. I think they'll take the trade off of the sideline call and the hail Mary shove no call.


Re tradeoff (not saying there was an intentional tradefoff, just the result), agree.
Post #: 5578
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:36:12 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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Here is a link discussing the bad officiating in general during that game.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/nfl-officiating-spotlight-preposterous-chiefs-packers-patrick-mahomes-valdes-scantling/
Post #: 5579
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:58:58 AM   
marty


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Looking at the article Bill linked, you could say the Chiefs got 4 incorrect calls all in their favor, before the non call of PI on the Packer defender.

Had they also called PI, with 4 bad calls, along with an correct one, all going against the Packers, it may have led to suspicion that the Chiefs were the preferred winner, and you could have had a pretty angry Packers fan base at the game.

The little push on Kelce is a thing that doesn't usually get pointed out, in fact what's funny to me, is on a play many years ago where the Packers lost on a Hail Mary (I think it was against Seattle) there was an unbelievable amount of contact and pushing from PACKER players, so justice was served on that one.

< Message edited by marty -- 12/4/2023 12:06:06 PM >


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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 12:04:55 PM   
marty


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The 4 incorrect calls I was referring to were:

1) A pretty iffy PI call that gave the Chiefs a 1st down

2) The clock not starting up after the Chiefs player was pushed backwards and out of bounds

3) The missed 10 second runoff on the play where a Chiefs player fumbled, but should have been ruled down. I caught that at the time, and was wondering why there wasn't a runoff, thinking either the rules changed, or that there must be something different about this situation.

4) The incorrect call where Mahomes was hit inbounds, and the defender was even being careful to hit him in bounds, and to show he was hitting him in bounds. I thought Mahomes was going to slow down a bit, the defender hits him lightly, and then Mahomes makes a move back inside to turn up field for more yardage.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 1:24:49 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.

No reason at all unless you just want to inflict some hurt on the guy. He was a half a step from his foot touching out of bounds. The more you slow it down the more it looks like, He wasn't even out of bounds!

I think stopping him from getting a first down is plenty of reason. Might as well play flag football.

Your opinion is obviously different then mine, and that's ok, but I contend he doesn't get an inch more if the guy basically just puts his hands on him and "pushes" him out.

The problem with football or atheltes, as I see it, is you got the "tough guys" always wanting to hit a little harder than what is necessary to just complete the play. Another name for those guys is dirty. And generally speaking, it's most likely those guys who cost their team with "stupid" penalties.
Post #: 5582
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 1:26:49 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The 4 incorrect calls I was referring to were:

1) A pretty iffy PI call that gave the Chiefs a 1st down

2) The clock not starting up after the Chiefs player was pushed backwards and out of bounds

3) The missed 10 second runoff on the play where a Chiefs player fumbled, but should have been ruled down. I caught that at the time, and was wondering why there wasn't a runoff, thinking either the rules changed, or that there must be something different about this situation.

4) The incorrect call where Mahomes was hit inbounds, and the defender was even being careful to hit him in bounds, and to show he was hitting him in bounds. I thought Mahomes was going to slow down a bit, the defender hits him lightly, and then Mahomes makes a move back inside to turn up field for more yardage.


That play, called by the woman, made me wonder if they changed the rule as I understood it.

< Message edited by Ricky J -- 12/4/2023 2:07:06 PM >
Post #: 5583
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 4:05:10 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The 4 incorrect calls I was referring to were:

1) A pretty iffy PI call that gave the Chiefs a 1st down

2) The clock not starting up after the Chiefs player was pushed backwards and out of bounds

3) The missed 10 second runoff on the play where a Chiefs player fumbled, but should have been ruled down. I caught that at the time, and was wondering why there wasn't a runoff, thinking either the rules changed, or that there must be something different about this situation.

4) The incorrect call where Mahomes was hit inbounds, and the defender was even being careful to hit him in bounds, and to show he was hitting him in bounds. I thought Mahomes was going to slow down a bit, the defender hits him lightly, and then Mahomes makes a move back inside to turn up field for more yardage.

They didn't run off 10 seconds because of the penalty called. Pacheco haymaker.
Post #: 5584
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 5:27:59 PM   
marty


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Are you saying there shouldn't be a runoff because of the penalty being called, or that the penalty distracted them ?

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 5:31:10 PM   
marty


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The problem with football or atheltes, as I see it, is you got the "tough guys" always wanting to hit a little harder than what is necessary to just complete the play. Another name for those guys is dirty. And generally speaking, it's most likely those guys who cost their team with "stupid" penalties.

I would think they are trained if the QB is out of the pocket, hasn't slid and is not going out of bounds, that you give them a good hit. You want to discourage them running, and or make them a little woozy for their next pass. I don't see this as dirty, nor stupid, it's a legal hit.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 5:45:52 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The problem with football or atheltes, as I see it, is you got the "tough guys" always wanting to hit a little harder than what is necessary to just complete the play. Another name for those guys is dirty. And generally speaking, it's most likely those guys who cost their team with "stupid" penalties.

I would think they are trained if the QB is out of the pocket, hasn't slid and is not going out of bounds, that you give them a good hit. You want to discourage them running, and or make them a little woozy for their next pass. I don't see this as dirty, nor stupid, it's a legal hit.

I think they may be told that doesn't mean trained, imo. Everyones nature is different. Some players are smart. Some players are stupid.

Here's the deal with that hit as I see it. Regardless of how he is hit the spot is going to be the same. He was that close to actually touching out of bounds with his foot. Close enough you have to slow down the cameras to see it. Is that worth laying a hit on him when you could of just tapped him? In this case maybe bc they won anyway. But if that would of been enough to let KC score and tie it and win in OT would of it been worth it then?
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 6:05:10 PM   
Mark Anderson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Are you saying there shouldn't be a runoff because of the penalty being called, or that the penalty distracted them ?

Pretty sure accepted penalties stop the clock. So no runoff.
Post #: 5588
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 6:18:18 PM   
marty


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But if that would of been enough to let KC score and tie it and win in OT would of it been worth it then?

The official closest to the hit didn't think it was a penalty, so not getting a penalty, like he should NOT have gotten, certainly makes it worth it.

And even if flagged, you make the QB a little less likely to run, and maybe woozy enough to where he throws a pick, or just a bad pass. So that also makes it worthwhile.

So either way is worth it to me. If you're defense can't keep them out of the end zone, you don't deserve to win.

Now had KC just needed a FG, in that scenario, I would probably go without a strong hit, but yet a strong enough hit to make sure the QB is going out of bounds, and not turning back in for more yardage, and possibly a TD, or a lateral for a TD.

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Post #: 5589
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 6:29:23 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

But if that would of been enough to let KC score and tie it and win in OT would of it been worth it then?

The official closest to the hit didn't think it was a penalty, so not getting a penalty, like he should NOT have gotten, certainly makes it worth it.

And even if flagged, you make the QB a little less likely to run, and maybe woozy enough to where he throws a pick, or just a bad pass. So that also makes it worthwhile.

So either way is worth it to me. If you're defense can't keep them out of the end zone, you don't deserve to win.

Now had KC just needed a FG, in that scenario, I would probably go without a strong hit, but yet a strong enough hit to make sure the QB is going out of bounds, and not turning back in for more yardage, and possibly a TD, or a lateral for a TD.


Your position is noted.

Me, I'd of tapped him bc that's all that was needed.
Mahomes could of taken twice the hit and he would of come back and done the exact same thing if that's what was needed. I'm not sure what QB you're going to make a little less likely to run but he's prob not very good to begin with
Post #: 5590
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 8:06:51 PM   
marty


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Mahomes will still run, but he might run a little more timidly, feeling he might get hit hard from the side or behind, might be more inclined to slide on a later play.

It's a physical mentality.

Hit him lightly, and when he takes off later, he feels more in control, a "you can't hurt me mentality", I am in charge and can hurt you in so many different ways, you don't know what I will do next.

Hitting him hard, puts him on notice that his opponent is going to be physical.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 9:18:26 PM   
beo

 

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Former Vike Jake Browning balling out tonight..
Post #: 5592
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/4/2023 11:30:52 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

Former Vike Jake Browning balling out tonight..

This franchise is where QB’s go to suck ass, injure major body parts, or just make an ass of themselves or the entire Fanbase..

A team with a history that includes “the love boat incident”, is considering drafting a guy already nicknamed “ PENIX(S)”….

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 12:39:54 AM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels


I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Nix
Penix
Ewers

That's my order right now. I've see Penix a few times lately. Not sure about the side arm delivery.

McCarthy has a cannon. Underrated because Michigan doesn't pass much.


McCarthy is underrated. His progression over the last two years is pretty remarkable. He's very athletic and fast, and he's Pro-ready. Best QB in the nation on play action, and arguably the best passer in the nation outside of the pocket. His size could be an issue in the NFL. He's on the short side of 6'3"

I wouldn't be shocked though if he decided to stay in Ann Arbor.
Post #: 5594
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 12:49:55 AM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Just as many people would be angry as not if the Unsportsman like on Mahomes is called or nor called.

I liked the call bc there was no reason to hit him ... and of course I had a few bucks on the Chiefs

Doesn't look to me like GB sucks any more. Tough thing to say

No reason to hit him? He was in bounds and going for a first down. I guess there's no reason to hit anyone.


Real close either way. But every player and coach in the league knows the NFL goes out of its way to protect QBs. It's the most important position in team sports. So go ahead and deliver the big hit on the sideline... at your peril.

And the qb can also tip toe the sidelines trying to squeeze as much yardage out of it at his own peril.


By peril I meant at the risk of getting a 15 yard penalty.

And in this case the QB was not tip toeing the sidelines. But I see your point because on that play the first down marker was key. Could the defender get there is time? And with the angle of the run, the defender was going to have to deliver a hit (as opposed to just a push or whatever).

So I agree with you, but also not surprised it was flagged.

Agreed. You can't help it if the refs call silly stuff. But also let's not pretend the Chiefs got all the calls. That last play looked like a bad push in the back even by hail Mary standards.


I'm not pretending anything re who got the calls. But am saying whenever a QB, especially Pat Mahomes, is basically at the sidelines and he is hit hard, then there is a good chance a flag will come flying.

The Hail Mary's are a free for all, always have been.


The rules and officiating can't, and shouldn't, try to fix that.

Imagine just always getting the defensive PI on hail mary's. That would suck.

Also, nobody says shit about possible offensive PI on those plays. Let 'em Play.
Post #: 5595
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 1:24:48 AM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels


I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Nix
Penix
Ewers

That's my order right now. I've see Penix a few times lately. Not sure about the side arm delivery.

McCarthy has a cannon. Underrated because Michigan doesn't pass much.


McCarthy is underrated. His progression over the last two years is pretty remarkable. He's very athletic and fast, and he's Pro-ready. Best QB in the nation on play action, and arguably the best passer in the nation outside of the pocket. His size could be an issue in the NFL. He's on the short side of 6'3"

I wouldn't be shocked though if he decided to stay in Ann Arbor.

McCarthy last 4 games he's averaging 124 yards passing and has a grand total of 1 td pass. I say no thanks.
Post #: 5596
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 2:00:13 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13742
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels


I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Nix
Penix
Ewers

That's my order right now. I've see Penix a few times lately. Not sure about the side arm delivery.

McCarthy has a cannon. Underrated because Michigan doesn't pass much.


McCarthy is underrated. His progression over the last two years is pretty remarkable. He's very athletic and fast, and he's Pro-ready. Best QB in the nation on play action, and arguably the best passer in the nation outside of the pocket. His size could be an issue in the NFL. He's on the short side of 6'3"

I wouldn't be shocked though if he decided to stay in Ann Arbor.

McCarthy last 4 games he's averaging 124 yards passing and has a grand total of 1 td pass. I say no thanks.


Don't be fooled. Michigan has given up a handful of TD's the entire season. They play from the lead and run it down your throat. No need to sling it. I'm saying don't let the box scores fool you, McCarthy is the real deal. If he comes out, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the best NFL career of this QB draft class.

On the other hand, Caleb Williams has averaged 322 yards passing per game over the last five. They won one of those games.

Do you think McCarthy should pass more to pad his stats, or just lead his team to continuous victories?
Post #: 5597
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 2:28:08 AM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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From: Alamogordo, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

No need to move up that far.

Agree. Not "my list" but the general consensus is that these are the guys that can go in the first:

Williams
May
Nix
Penix
McCarthy
Ewers
Daniels


I don't think Sanders is coming out so left him off. Haven't seen much of Daniels to comment but he has great stats. Everyone else, I've watched a good bit of. I would say hell no to Nix, Ewers and McCarthy for various reasons. Penix is my favorite guy but the injury history scares me a bit.

Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Nix
Penix
Ewers

That's my order right now. I've see Penix a few times lately. Not sure about the side arm delivery.

McCarthy has a cannon. Underrated because Michigan doesn't pass much.


McCarthy is underrated. His progression over the last two years is pretty remarkable. He's very athletic and fast, and he's Pro-ready. Best QB in the nation on play action, and arguably the best passer in the nation outside of the pocket. His size could be an issue in the NFL. He's on the short side of 6'3"

I wouldn't be shocked though if he decided to stay in Ann Arbor.

McCarthy last 4 games he's averaging 124 yards passing and has a grand total of 1 td pass. I say no thanks.


Don't be fooled. Michigan has given up a handful of TD's the entire season. They play from the lead and run it down your throat. No need to sling it. I'm saying don't let the box scores fool you, McCarthy is the real deal. If he comes out, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the best NFL career of this QB draft class.

On the other hand, Caleb Williams has averaged 322 yards passing per game over the last five. They won one of those games.

Do you think McCarthy should pass more to pad his stats, or just lead his team to continuous victories?

I think if he's THAT good he can do better than 1 td pass in 4 games against good big 10 teams. If he's so good at playaction I'd expect more. I've seen a couple of those games. No offense but I'm not impressed and most pro ready usually means the opposite.
Post #: 5598
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 2:36:21 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13742
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
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No offense taken Richard, but you're wrong on this one. I hope we get him somehow and then you will be forced to love him... until he turns into Ponder.
Post #: 5599
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/5/2023 2:43:19 AM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

Posts: 19085
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

No offense taken Richard, but you're wrong on this one. I hope we get him somehow and then you will be forced to love him... until he turns into Ponder.

Hey I hope he proves me wrong in the CFP. IF we draft him I hope he tears it up!
Post #: 5600
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