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RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 8:22:24 AM

Bill Jandro

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Vikings Mailbag (The Athletic):

What is wrong with the special teams? — Robert L.

Well, where do you want to start? How about the punt team. Britton Colquitt is struggling, which is a large part of the problem. He ranks dead-last in net yards per punt. But he’s also not getting much from his gunners, which is why he’s had only six punts downed inside the 20, second-worst in the league.

From there, let’s move to the long snapper. The Vikings drafted a long snapper two years ago because they wanted to ensure they got Austin Cutting. But the last two games, Cutting has had poor snaps that caused the Vikings to miss the opportunity to add a point after a touchdown.

Want more? Well, the kickoff unit is struggling, evidenced by Cordarrelle Patterson’s 104-yard return on Monday. While the league has incentivized teams seeking touchbacks, that’s not Dan Bailey’s strength. He’s an accurate kicker (when the long snap arrives on time), but he doesn’t have the huge leg of some in the league, part of why he ranks 19th in touchback percentage.

Now to the Vikings’ return game. They knew they wanted to draft a returner this year, but a run on returners in the fifth round blocked them from most of the players they sought. So they settled on K.J. Osborn even though he doesn’t seem to be an NFL-caliber wide receiver. But the problem is Osborn hasn’t really brought much in the return game, either.

In just about every phase of special teams, the Vikings have major concerns.
...

Why is Dan Chisena still on the team? I understand he’s fast but that does a gunner no good when he can’t tackle. — Matt S.

The Vikings thought they could unlock a special teams stud in a former track star by teaching Chisena the ins and outs of a sport he didn’t regularly play in college. Oh, and they had to teach him how to tackle, too. But if they could do those two things, they’d have an elite-level special teams player, they thought.

While Chisena’s speed has been very apparent and he’s often the first Vikings player to reach the returner, he rarely makes the tackle, has been responsible for two costly penalties, and seems to lack situational awareness, like Monday when he fell into the end zone while trying to down a punt at the 1-yard line.

The Vikings still think there’s potential. But it’s taking longer than expected to bring out the best in Chisena.

theathletic.com/2204838/2020/11/18/justin-jefferson-playoffs-vikings-mailbag/

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4751

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 8:24:17 AM

Bill Jandro

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It’s crazy to think that it’s almost Thanksgiving and a team that ranks in the top-10 in both offensive DVOA and defensive DVOA has a record under .500. But such is life for the Vikings, both because they’ve found ways to lose games in which they played well and because their special teams have been so bad.

The unit was always an issue for the Vikings, but it’s become more apparent in the last week after they allowed a 104-yard kickoff return and cameras caught Zimmer yelling at special teams coordinator Marwan Maalouf.

Perhaps the most damning stat (and, thus, one of the main reasons the Vikings are 4-5 despite decent offensive and defensive production) is that they rank worst in the NFL in offensive field position and defensive field position. They’re constantly starting in a hole.

Their return game is non-existent and K.J. Osborn, who was drafted in the fifth round specifically to fix that aspect, hasn’t been any better than what they already had. He’s averaging 1.7 yards per punt return, worst in the league. Meanwhile, the punting game is a huge problem both because the punter hasn’t done great and the gunners have struggled to help him in punt coverage. Oh, and they’ve had two punts blocked, plus their long snapper has botched snaps in back-to-back weeks.

It’s still unclear how the Vikings could quickly turn around their special teams. But they can’t keep playing like this and expect to reach the playoffs.

theathletic.com/2206455/2020/11/19/vikings-playoff-path-scenarios/

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4752

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 8:28:56 AM

Bill Jandro

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KJ Osborn was a wasted pick(1.7 yards /return). Cut him and bring back Marcus Sherels.

This Chisena can hit the bricks as well.

Malouf is looking like a dumbass.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4753

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 8:45:09 AM

Bruce Johnson

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Josh Mettellus leads with special team tackles with 7 (plus at least one fumble recovery) and Mike Boone has 4. Wasn't Osborn the one with the foot on the goal line when he downed a punt? He and Chisena have only two tackles each. I realize that tackles on special teams is not the only criteria for determining effectiveness, but it has to be a key one.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 4754

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 9:25:02 AM

Bill Jandro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Josh Mettellus leads with special team tackles with 7 (plus at least one fumble recovery) and Mike Boone has 4. Wasn't Osborn the one with the foot on the goal line when he downed a punt? He and Chisena have only two tackles each. I realize that tackles on special teams is not the only criteria for determining effectiveness, but it has to be a key one.

Chisena

Looks like he's never played football in his life

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4755

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 9:53:27 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44299
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Josh Mettellus leads with special team tackles with 7 (plus at least one fumble recovery) and Mike Boone has 4. Wasn't Osborn the one with the foot on the goal line when he downed a punt? He and Chisena have only two tackles each. I realize that tackles on special teams is not the only criteria for determining effectiveness, but it has to be a key one.

Chisena

Looks like he's never played football in his life

Yep, Chisena. That said, I couldn't be more unimpressed with Osborne.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 4756

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 10:06:12 AM

Bill Jandro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Josh Mettellus leads with special team tackles with 7 (plus at least one fumble recovery) and Mike Boone has 4. Wasn't Osborn the one with the foot on the goal line when he downed a punt? He and Chisena have only two tackles each. I realize that tackles on special teams is not the only criteria for determining effectiveness, but it has to be a key one.

Chisena

Looks like he's never played football in his life

Yep, Chisena. That said, I couldn't be more unimpressed with Osborne.

We've been lucky JJ is good and AT is healthy. Our wr depth falls off a cliff after these two and Osborn certainly is no help. Didn't like the pick when was made and I still don't like it.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4757

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 2:05:44 PM

bohumm

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I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Post #: 4758

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 3:20:40 PM

Bill Jandro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Isn't building somebody in to something be like PS material

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Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 4759

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 6:36:32 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Insult added to injury if Packers come from behind in same situation as Vikings.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 4760

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 6:48:39 PM

Bill Johanesen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Isn't building somebody in to something be like PS material

Maybe someone can go back and build up Osborn's KR stats. Then we can draft him with an air of eligibility.

Post #: 4761

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 7:17:01 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm
I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Osborne was a terrible pick. He has no awareness on returns and isn't a good enough receiver to be used in the offense.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 4762

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/22/2020 9:03:25 PM

bohumm

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From: Altadena, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm
I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Osborne was a terrible pick. He has no awareness on returns and isn't a good enough receiver to be used in the offense.

Maybe so. I'm willing to give him time, but it's true he hasn't flashed yet. We'll see.

Post #: 4763

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 4:54:39 AM

Bruce Johnson

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#Vikings defense have allowed the 5th most points in the league.

Warren Ludford on Twitter

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 4764

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:07:07 AM

Arlowe84

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Yesterday was kind of synopsis of Kirk Cousins career.

He looked great for large portions of the game. Making some great throws (also an all time great catch by Thielen that bought him 1 TD).

However, when they needed the $30M man to step up, against an all time worst D, he failed. Plain in and simple. Yes, Jefferson dropped a sure fire 15 to 20 yard gain, but on the last 2 drive, Cousins made at least 3 pathetic throws, that had little chance of being complete.
That's what was so weird about NO last year, he actually did step up in a big moment.

If Cousins were making like $8 mil a year, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But when you are making that kind of coin (which ultimately impacts your ability to pay people at other positions) you have to be the man. Cousins never has, and well into his 30's never will be.
He's just an average QB, with an arm to make nice throws time to time.

That Dallas offense is incredibly talented. Night and day from Chicago, so I guess we all got sucked into the fact that "Zimmer had found a D"

He also seemed to get very passive, but Chicago with no running game or weapons allowed the to do that. I guess Zimmmer thought our front 4 could handle it.
They were invisible.

I highly doubt Cousins is going anywhere Spielman and Zimmer will ride this out
I"m sure they've convinced themselves that if not for Hunter, Barr and Pierce we'd be in the mix. And maybe we would be.
There's still an incredible amount of parity in the league, and it doesn't take that much to get into the playoff mix.

I guess the good news in all this, is our OLine has seemed to play much better. Oddly, they seem to be doing better in pass protection than run blocking lately.

Draft should be defense, defense, defense.
Seems we need bodies up front. They need to ditch Harris, we have no need for a high paid "ball hawk" safety, if you can never pressure the QB
He's been a great story, but we don't need to pay that kind of money.

I don't know the details, but hopefully getting rid of he an Barr can result in some free cap space.
With how much talent we have on offense, I'd still take a franchise LT if we pick high enough and he's there.

But FA and draft, we need to find guys up front bit time. That will improve the whole secondary.

Personally, I'd rather be 5 and 11 vs 7 and 9 or 8 and 8, get the highest pick possible in each round. I'm sure they'll scrape out a few more wins though.

< Message edited by Arlowe84 -- 11/23/2020 8:08:58 AM >

Post #: 4765

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:28:31 AM

ronhextall

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Looking back you hear / read some version of this a lot after Vikings losses.... "Cousins wasn't the reason they lost yesterday " or " Cousins actually played pretty well yesterday ".

Sorry, for the coin he is making the Vikings need some.... " Cousins is the reason they won yesterday " .... " Cousins put the team on his back yesterday and carried them ".

I will say, lots of teams are in the same boat. You pay big time money for a QB not named Mahones, Wilson, Rodgers, or Brady and you are basically screwing your franchise.

Watson can't carry a team and he being paid a fortune. Lamar likely will be paid a fortune and he can't carry a team.

Interesting times.

Post #: 4766

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:36:27 AM

Bruce Johnson

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As a member of the Vikings, Randall Cunningham had only one game with 300+ Yards, 3+ TDs, and 0 INTs.

Dustin Baker

(Numbers that Cousins achieved yesterday)

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 4767

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:42:15 AM

Rob Viking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

However, when they needed the $30M man to step up, against an all time worst D, he failed. Plain in and simple. Yes, Jefferson dropped a sure fire 15 to 20 yard gain, but on the last 2 drive, Cousins made at least 3 pathetic throws, that had little chance of being complete.
That's what was so weird about NO last year, he actually did step up in a big moment.

If Cousins were making like $8 mil a year, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But when you are making that kind of coin (which ultimately impacts your ability to pay people at other positions) you have to be the man. Cousins never has, and well into his 30's never will be.
He's just an average QB, with an arm to make nice throws time to time.

I wouldn't call them pathetic. Thielen didn't win on both of his routes but the ball was put where it had to be. The coverage was excellent on routes that Thielen wins 9 out of 10 times. the other incompletions were perfect defensive calls by the Cowboys.

There aren't many $8M QBs, unless they're rookies or some backup like Dalton.

Not that I disagree with the overall assessment on Cousins, the It factor or lack thereof is real.

Post #: 4768

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:42:22 AM

TJSweens

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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm
I'm willing to give Osborne time, since he has the tools and has proven to be a hard worker. I never understood the Chisena fascination, and there seems to be no reason for him to be active even if you think you can build him into something (that many other guys who can actually play a position could be built into also....).

Osborne was a terrible pick. He has no awareness on returns and isn't a good enough receiver to be used in the offense.

Maybe so. I'm willing to give him time, but it's true he hasn't flashed yet. We'll see.

Fair enough, but I'm not holding my breath.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 4769

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:49:51 AM

Rob Viking

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Though we lost to a 2-7 Cowboy team, they were coming off the bye and were healthier than they had been most of the season. They matchup well against the young secondary, while their OLine has the physicality vs a smaller defensive front. Actually the 2 incompletions to Thielen on the final 2 drives was the exact same route Cooper ran to covert the 4th down on the Cowboys final drive.

The Cook fumble proved very costly, not his fault at all and 9 time out of 10 that's incomplete but the timing was perfect.

Post #: 4770

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 8:59:32 AM

Arlowe84

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Viking

Though we lost to a 2-7 Cowboy team, they were coming off the bye and were healthier than they had been most of the season. They matchup well against the young secondary, while their OLine has the physicality vs a smaller defensive front. Actually the 2 incompletions to Thielen on the final 2 drives was the exact same route Cooper ran to covert the 4th down on the Cowboys final drive.

The Cook fumble proved very costly, not his fault at all and 9 time out of 10 that's incomplete but the timing was perfect.

it's a good point about a bye vs MNF. Extra rest big at this point, and we are not good enough to make mistakes and overcome that sort of rest advantage!

Post #: 4771

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 9:16:35 AM

Arlowe84

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So this will mark the end of Zimmer's 7th season.
2 division wins, 2 playoff wins (1 of those a mircale)
Not even competitive in anything past 1 playoff win
Signed a $30M QB to be the difference maker, no division wins, one playoff appearance/win in 3 seasons, with 2 very non competitive years.

Is this acceptable? Should Vikings ownership expect better?

Post #: 4772

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 9:26:22 AM

Mark Anderson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

So this will mark the end of Zimmer's 7th season.
2 division wins, 2 playoff wins (1 of those a mircale)
Not even competitive in anything past 1 playoff win
Signed a $30M QB to be the difference maker, no division wins, one playoff appearance/win in 3 seasons, with 2 very non competitive years.

Is this acceptable? Should Vikings ownership expect better?

If you add up all those seasons we are probably somewhere between #9 to #13 for overall record.

That's good but Zimmer has proven to just be a little bit better than Marvin Lewis. And that doesn't get you a championship.

Unless we lose 5 or 6 more games this year, he will be back. New contract and key players coming back from injury will be the reason.

Post #: 4773

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 9:30:17 AM

The Happy Norseman

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A few thoughts:

1. Well, there goes the season. At least the Vikings dashed our hopes early. Usually the team sucks us in, strings us a long, then and finds a way to make it as painful as possible to be a Vikings fan.

2. When your team has as many holes as the Vikings do, you cannot be terrible in any one area. Mediocre, maybe. Our special teams are terrible. Definitely needs to be a focus of the team's attention going into next year.

3. What happened to Harrison Smith? Easily the worst game I've seen him play. Obviously he was trying to cover for the rookie CB's but he only made matters worse.

4. We need a QBOTF in the draft. Kirk can't put a team on his shoulders and lead them to victory. The Vikings need to keep swinging until they find their version of Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson. Watch KC last night. Did anyone think that Mahomes was NOT going to lead his team to a comeback victory? It's not okay to settle for mediocrity at the position.

5. We have an elite core of skill position players on offense with Cook, Smith, Thielen and Jefferson. With a better offensive line this team could lead the league in scoring next year.

5. I don't trust Spielman at all, but the Vikings have a lot of quality players and can easily compete next year with a few smart decisions:

- save salary by booting Reiff, Barr, Rudolph, Harris
- draft/sign 2 OG's, 1 3T DT

That's it!

Spielman has a million draft picks, and could free up the cap space to make it happen. Of course we need depth, and we'll need another S, but if we make it a priority to fill those 3 positions this team can compete for a Superbowl next year.

We'll see...

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 4774

RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/23/2020 10:19:42 AM

David F.

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Bret Jones posted the best PFF ranking of any Viking RG for this season. Who on the team evaluates these guys? They thought the ranking should be Elflien, Samia, Cleveland, Jones. IT APPEARS THAT IT WAS PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE?!?!!?!?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 4775