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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:43:00 PM   
TJSweens


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Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott
PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.

I wouldn't take it that far, but they are hardly the be all and end all of performance evaluation. There are a lot of gaps there.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6151
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:43:13 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Didn't see the game, but how is Cousins not grading out at at least 66.2? Were the receivers throwing to themselves?


You sort of answered your own question there.

I saw the game and I have the same question. He completed 70% of his passes for over 400 yards with 3 TD and no picks.


PFF doesn't care if the defender drops the easy INT. He had two plays with those. One where he inexplicably threw it directly to a D-lineman standing all by himself. One of his passes to Jefferson was off the mark by such a degree that it caused Jefferson to lose his balance and fall down where he caught it. There was no defender in sight - easy TD. Kirk also took an early sack where he had plenty of time and just stood there as the lone rusher came at him. He made no attempt to elude the rusher. His rating for the day was accurate. It was the Lions. 3 TDs and 400 yards is the standard against them.

So, we have one near int, a completion that wasn't perfectly thrown and a sack. Yeah, that wipes 400 yds and 3 TD right off the board.


TWO easy INTs that were dropped and a pass that was so bad it cost the team a TD. The rating is correct. They rewatch every play over and over. Sorry but the performance from yesterday wasn’t excellent it was just good.



PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6152
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:44:51 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
The Lions allowed an average of 2.4 passing TDs per game this season so big props to Kurt for his additional 0.6 TDs!

He threw 112 yards over what their 30th ranked D allows. Whoo Hoo!


25% more TD and 40% more yards. The quality of the defense is irrelevant. QB's get rated whether they play good or bad defenses. You still have to execute and actually pile up those numbers. If we're going to play the mitigating factor game, Cousins put up big numbers without Cook and operating behind the shittiest line in football with one of its few good players out of the lineup.

Look, nobody is asking for Cousins to named offensive player of the week. bohum simply raised a good question. You would think those numbers would rate something 60 in PFF's grading regardless of who he played against.


Well yeah. That’s why his rating was over 60. Above average.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6153
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:46:27 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 42761
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6154
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:48:29 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6155
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:49:54 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 21748
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

The best service I can find is my own eyes. Cousins sucks!

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 6156
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:50:26 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
Speaking of cook being out am I the only one that noticed mattison was out team MVP yesterday? That was an incredible performance. Best back-up RB in the NFL except for Kareem hunt?

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6157
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:51:57 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

The best service I can find is my own eyes. Cousins sucks!


Well I concede that your eyes are a superior service. I’m gonna need you to start breaking down every game for me though and have the results available by 9AM the next morning.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6158
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:53:00 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 24476
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen
The Lions allowed an average of 2.4 passing TDs per game this season so big props to Kurt for his additional 0.6 TDs!

He threw 112 yards over what their 30th ranked D allows. Whoo Hoo!


25% more TD and 40% more yards. The quality of the defense is irrelevant. QB's get rated whether they play good or bad defenses. You still have to execute and actually pile up those numbers. If we're going to play the mitigating factor game, Cousins put up big numbers without Cook and operating behind the shittiest line in football with one of its few good players out of the lineup.

Look, nobody is asking for Cousins to named offensive player of the week. bohum simply raised a good question. You would think those numbers would rate something 60 in PFF's grading regardless of who he played against.



"The quality of the defense is irrelevant."

"...regardless of who he played against."

With those as your guiding principles for grading a QB, I got nothing. Enjoy your stats reflecting a typical KC outing... big stats against a shitty D.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/4/2021 2:54:34 PM >
Post #: 6159
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:58:06 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 37207
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Speaking of cook being out am I the only one that noticed mattison was out team MVP yesterday? That was an incredible performance. Best back-up RB in the NFL except for Kareem hunt?


Calls into question why he didn't get more touches to keep Cook fresh and lessen the punishment on him?

_____________________________

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Post #: 6160
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 2:59:36 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 37207
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

They try to grade a players performance not having a clue what that players responsibility is on any given particular play and the judgement is 100% subjective.

It's a waste of time.

_____________________________

"You made a mistake. There isn't a man among us who hasn't been young enough to make one."

- Boothby - Starfleet Academy groundskeeper
Post #: 6161
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:03:30 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

They try to grade a players performance not having a clue what that players responsibility is on any given particular play and the judgement is 100% subjective.

It's a waste of time.


They have a pretty good idea what the players’ responsibilities were on each play. It’s figure-out-able. This is NFL football not quantum physics.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6162
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:09:46 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Didn't see the game, but how is Cousins not grading out at at least 66.2? Were the receivers throwing to themselves?


You sort of answered your own question there.

Wow. Didn't really expect this from you, but the bolded is exactly why I was asking the question. You gave some valid reasons, though that might not be enough to knock him down that far. PFF is not the Bible, Koran, or even the Big Book. Oh wait, none of those are the infallible Word of God, either.


I didn’t mean for my comment to be harsh but rather a good natured haha/gotcha type of thing

Got it.
Post #: 6163
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:14:41 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 37207
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

They try to grade a players performance not having a clue what that players responsibility is on any given particular play and the judgement is 100% subjective.

It's a waste of time.


They have a pretty good idea what the players’ responsibilities were on each play. It’s figure-out-able. This is NFL football not quantum physics.


Figure outable is another way of saying "guessing"

_____________________________

"You made a mistake. There isn't a man among us who hasn't been young enough to make one."

- Boothby - Starfleet Academy groundskeeper
Post #: 6164
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:17:29 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
PFF is one tool. I don't buy the Zimmer line that it's worthless because they don't know what everyone is supposed to be doing, but there are limits on what they can know. Analytics are great----up to the point where they're not. We overapply analytics throughout society, so it's no surprise that sports have become what they are. Chris "Conflict of Interest" Collinsworth (who I generally like and also respect that his DNA is so alpha that his kid is a near carbon copy) throws out stuff all the time without context or caveat. Case in point, when to go on fourth down: the analytics used are for the league as a whole, not a given team on a given night in a given place against another given team on a given night in a given place. So the Vikings going for it on 4th-and-1 from their own 45 against Bears in a sloppy field is not the same as the Browns in the same situation on indoor turf against the Texans. The number Collinsworth spits out is one parameter to consider, but first and foremost is knowing your own team, and then knowing your opponent and the situation.
Post #: 6165
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:30:42 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 42761
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6166
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:31:22 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 24476
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

They try to grade a players performance not having a clue what that players responsibility is on any given particular play and the judgement is 100% subjective.

It's a waste of time.


Zimmer has said that. Who knows the responsibilities of the OL or the safeties. Or a DT who 'only' eats up blockers. How do you factor two good WRs into a QB grade.
Post #: 6167
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:32:24 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 42761
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

PFF is one tool. I don't buy the Zimmer line that it's worthless because they don't know what everyone is supposed to be doing, but there are limits on what they can know. Analytics are great----up to the point where they're not. We overapply analytics throughout society, so it's no surprise that sports have become what they are. Chris "Conflict of Interest" Collinsworth (who I generally like and also respect that his DNA is so alpha that his kid is a near carbon copy) throws out stuff all the time without context or caveat. Case in point, when to go on fourth down: the analytics used are for the league as a whole, not a given team on a given night in a given place against another given team on a given night in a given place. So the Vikings going for it on 4th-and-1 from their own 45 against Bears in a sloppy field is not the same as the Browns in the same situation on indoor turf against the Texans. The number Collinsworth spits out is one parameter to consider, but first and foremost is knowing your own team, and then knowing your opponent and the situation.

Exactly. Use it as one piece of the analytic process. It's not the definitive analytic tool in football.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6168
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:34:36 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 74481
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

PFF is one tool. I don't buy the Zimmer line that it's worthless because they don't know what everyone is supposed to be doing, but there are limits on what they can know. Analytics are great----up to the point where they're not. We overapply analytics throughout society, so it's no surprise that sports have become what they are. Chris "Conflict of Interest" Collinsworth (who I generally like and also respect that his DNA is so alpha that his kid is a near carbon copy) throws out stuff all the time without context or caveat. Case in point, when to go on fourth down: the analytics used are for the league as a whole, not a given team on a given night in a given place against another given team on a given night in a given place. So the Vikings going for it on 4th-and-1 from their own 45 against Bears in a sloppy field is not the same as the Browns in the same situation on indoor turf against the Texans. The number Collinsworth spits out is one parameter to consider, but first and foremost is knowing your own team, and then knowing your opponent and the situation.


Of course Zimmer thinks its worthless.

Analytics are like fire or the wheel. He doesn't trust them because they weren't around until later in his life.
Post #: 6169
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:35:43 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10089
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.


Whatever they sick then I guess. Jesus Christ.

_____________________________

If I had a time machine I'd stop the Kennedy assassination - just after I stopped the Moss trade.
Post #: 6170
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:37:14 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


Posts: 11312
Joined: 9/21/2013
Status: offline
Deja vu...

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
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Post #: 6171
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:38:00 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


Posts: 11312
Joined: 9/21/2013
Status: offline
What day/ off-season year is this again?

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad
Post #: 6172
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:42:19 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

PFF is one tool. I don't buy the Zimmer line that it's worthless because they don't know what everyone is supposed to be doing, but there are limits on what they can know. Analytics are great----up to the point where they're not. We overapply analytics throughout society, so it's no surprise that sports have become what they are. Chris "Conflict of Interest" Collinsworth (who I generally like and also respect that his DNA is so alpha that his kid is a near carbon copy) throws out stuff all the time without context or caveat. Case in point, when to go on fourth down: the analytics used are for the league as a whole, not a given team on a given night in a given place against another given team on a given night in a given place. So the Vikings going for it on 4th-and-1 from their own 45 against Bears in a sloppy field is not the same as the Browns in the same situation on indoor turf against the Texans. The number Collinsworth spits out is one parameter to consider, but first and foremost is knowing your own team, and then knowing your opponent and the situation.


Of course Zimmer thinks its worthless.

Analytics are like fire or the wheel. He doesn't trust them because they weren't around until later in his life.




Thumbnail Image


Attachment (1)

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Work like a Captain.
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Post #: 6173
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:44:30 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 24476
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

PFF is one tool. I don't buy the Zimmer line that it's worthless because they don't know what everyone is supposed to be doing, but there are limits on what they can know. Analytics are great----up to the point where they're not. We overapply analytics throughout society, so it's no surprise that sports have become what they are. Chris "Conflict of Interest" Collinsworth (who I generally like and also respect that his DNA is so alpha that his kid is a near carbon copy) throws out stuff all the time without context or caveat. Case in point, when to go on fourth down: the analytics used are for the league as a whole, not a given team on a given night in a given place against another given team on a given night in a given place. So the Vikings going for it on 4th-and-1 from their own 45 against Bears in a sloppy field is not the same as the Browns in the same situation on indoor turf against the Texans. The number Collinsworth spits out is one parameter to consider, but first and foremost is knowing your own team, and then knowing your opponent and the situation.


TMI
Post #: 6174
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:47:53 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 24476
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.


No. He says they are the best. Period. Nothing left to assert or support.

You say they are not, so burden of proof is on you. Who is the best then?
Post #: 6175
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