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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:49:17 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.


That's exactly how it works. For example: I say - Rick Fenney is the greatest running back of all time. Name one better. You can then say - <insert RB name here> is way better and here's why. Really simple, really easy.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6176
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:49:40 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16352
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott
PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.

I wouldn't take it that far, but they are hardly the be all and end all of performance evaluation. There are a lot of gaps there.


For me it's kind of like P/E for stocks. It's a piece of information, but you don't evaluate a stock solely on P/E.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 6177
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:52:41 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27471
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.


That's exactly how it works. For example: I say - Rick Fenney is the greatest running back of all time. Name one better. You can then say - <insert RB name here> is way better and here's why. Really simple, really easy.


Kind of too bad for Sweens because he took the middle ground between a couple of extreme positions about how to rate PFF.
Post #: 6178
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:56:01 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		On a scale of 1-100 where we are ranking the value of knowledge, insight, and comprehensiveness - PFF is a 85. The best current front office and coaching staff in the NFL (whoever it happens to be) is a 95. A seasoned fan and/or former NFL staff or player and regular bettor who makes a living betting on the NFL is an 80. The standard rabid fan who watches their team's games and most of the others is a 30. <----- That's me. The smartest packer fan out there is a 15. The casual NFL fan (almost all of football fandom) is a 5. Someone who just watched their first football game ever is a 1. The bulk of the packer fans are somewhere between 2 and 8.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6179
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 3:57:23 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.


Nonsense. They are the best rating and analysis available. Not perfect of course.

No, they really aren't. They try to quantify performance the way advanced stats do in baseball and basketball, but the criteria is much harder to contextualize then the other sports.

They are somewhere between where you and Scott rate them.


What service is better? Name it or my point stands as correct.

No, that's not how it works. You made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to support it. It's like asserting that there was wide spread voter without providing to support the assertion.


That's exactly how it works. For example: I say - Rick Fenney is the greatest running back of all time. Name one better. You can then say - <insert RB name here> is way better and here's why. Really simple, really easy.


Kind of too bad for Sweens because he took the middle ground between a couple of extreme positions about how to rate PFF.


Well it gets confusing because PFF is the best and also flawed and not perfect.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6180
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:02:14 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 44246
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.
Whatever they suck then I guess. Jesus Christ.

That's not what I'm saying.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6181
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:03:24 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline 		I teach respiratory therapy. I ask my students what the would do if they saw that a patient's oxygen saturation is 67% (normally above 94% or so) and their heart rate is 21 (normally 60-100). Some say all the emergency stuff you'd expect and when you tell them that the patient is watching Jeopardy and playing along, some still don't know that the right answer is to look at the patient with your own eyes. My resting heart rate is usually in the high 50's, so I sometimes have them put the pulse oximeter on me and ask if that's a normal rate, and if not, what they should do. Some say give me atropine (to spike my HR) or start chest compressions. I'm sitting right there (possibly brain dead, true) talking to them and they want to start wailing on my sternum to save me.

Data are a mosaic that we piece together to understand things. Context is critical. I'm going to question a C+ for Kirk given yesterday's stats until I get more data. At the same time, if someone told me Kirk graded out as a top-five QB this or any year, I'd assume there are 8-16 QBs in their top five and that their system is worthless.....
Post #: 6182
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:10:03 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38403
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline 		Im Sorry. I just have a foul taste for analytics in general since some dipshit analyzing baseball tried to quantify luck.

Luck.. is not a concept you can convert to a mathematical statement.

Now anyone says analytics and I get exceptionally skeptical.

PFF grades OLine play. How the **** can they? Why is it that a QB throws for 400+ yards, 3 TDs and 0 Ints and gets a poor grade?

I get it there were a few bad throws, but come on. Even the great Rodgers makes some dipshit throws from time to time. Although with Chris Collinsworth running the company you'd never see it from PFF. Cause between him, and Joe Buck it would be a pit fight to see who could blow Rodgers better.

They are SO overboard they can't see the flaws, few as they may be in Rodgers game.

_____________________________

I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.
Post #: 6183
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:16:12 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 44246
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott
PFF is a waste of time. Their grades are in essence meaningless.

I wouldn't take it that far, but they are hardly the be all and end all of performance evaluation. There are a lot of gaps there.


For me it's kind of like P/E for stocks. It's a piece of information, but you don't evaluate a stock solely on P/E.

Agreed. Also, compared to other sports, football is in its infancy when it comes to new age analytics. Applying context is a lot trickier. In baseball, for example, when a batter is evaluated on his performance at the plate, his teammates have no impact on it. In football, a player at any position has to evaluated in the context of what 10 other people are doing at the same time. I expect the methodology to improve over time. I applaud PFF for starting the process and pushing it to this point, but there is still a ways to go.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 1/4/2021 4:17:39 PM >

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6184
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:17:31 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16352
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		This photo shows how teams ranked with regard to how likely they were to run the ball on second and long. (The Vikings were the third to most likely. No surprise.)

https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1346139361763602432/photo/1

It's interesting that they dismiss the data from the final two minutes of a half or game.

< Message edited by Bruce Johnson -- 1/4/2021 4:19:17 PM >

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 6185
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:18:35 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Why is it that a QB throws for 400+ yards, 3 TDs and 0 Ints and gets a poor grade?


For our discussion it's important for me to point out that what you wrote here didn't happen. He got an above average grade.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6186
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:22:33 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16352
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Lowest on offense:

• Irv Smith Jr. - 54.8
• Ezra Cleveland - 56.8
• Tyler Conklin - 60.1

Lowest on defense:

• Troy Dye - 34.5
• Shamar Stephen - 41.1
• Jaleel Johnson - 45.0
• Eddie Yarbrough - 45.6
• Harrison Hand - 47.7

(Nick Olson)

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 6187
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 4:25:03 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16352
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Why is it that a QB throws for 400+ yards, 3 TDs and 0 Ints and gets a poor grade?


For our discussion it's important for me to point out that what you wrote here didn't happen. He got an above average grade.


I just asked Nick Olson why Cousins didn't have a higher grade. If he responds I will follow up. I think it's a good question.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 6188
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 5:03:04 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36120
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

Lowest on offense:

• Irv Smith Jr. - 54.8
• Ezra Cleveland - 56.8
• Tyler Conklin - 60.1

Lowest on defense:

• Troy Dye - 34.5
• Shamar Stephen - 41.1
• Jaleel Johnson - 45.0
• Eddie Yarbrough - 45.6
• Harrison Hand - 47.7

(Nick Olson)

Cleveland has certainly had his highs and lows this year.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 6189
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 5:04:03 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Speaking of cook being out am I the only one that noticed mattison was out team MVP yesterday? That was an incredible performance. Best back-up RB in the NFL except for Kareem hunt?

Running backs are a dime a dozen.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 6190
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 5:09:10 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline 		Here's the reality. We are talking about the same thing we did 12 months ago. Our offensive line is not good and our quarterback has deficiencies worsened by a bad offensive line. Our quarterback has a horrific contract, which cripples our ability to go out and sign solid free agents on either side of the ball.

There seems to be one common denominator.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/4/2021 5:11:09 PM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 6191
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 5:53:49 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36120
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

Here's the reality. We are talking about the same thing we did 12 months ago. Our offensive line is not good and our quarterback has deficiencies worsened by a bad offensive line. Our quarterback has a horrific contract, which cripples our ability to go out and sign solid free agents on either side of the ball.

There seems to be one common denominator.


Actually we've been talking about it a lot longer than that.

_____________________________

" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 6192
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 6:47:46 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline 		Hahaha let’s bring out all the old hits:

We need a 3rd WR, we need some upgrades at guard, we need a TE with speed, we need a lockdown corner.

At least we seem to have the linebacker that can cover and a left tackle.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6193
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 7:47:24 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16352
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		#Vikings OL final 2020 @PFF grades:

Reiff: 71.4
Dozier: 44.6
Bradbury: 61.4
Cleveland: 66.2
O’Neill: 77.5

Sean Borman on Twitter

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 6194
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 8:06:49 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10832
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

#Vikings OL final 2020 @PFF grades:

Reiff: 71.4
Dozier: 44.6
Bradbury: 61.4
Cleveland: 66.2
O’Neill: 77.5

Sean Borman on Twitter


Drew samia: 33.7
Pat elflein: 48.2

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6195
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/4/2021 11:28:34 PM   
kwheats

 

Posts: 2615
Joined: 2/28/2009
From: NORTHERN MINNESOTA
Status: offline 		Zimmer's choices for his new OC!!!

https://t.co/TTzjVzwstp?amp=1
Post #: 6196
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/5/2021 7:27:04 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kwheats

Zimmer's choices for his new OC!!!

https://t.co/TTzjVzwstp?amp=1

Man I hope not. Anthony Lynn was a disaster in Los Angeles the past two seasons as a head coach. Maybe get his offensive coordinator, who has done a decent job. Another Kubiak? Talk about nepotism. I've seen enough of that over the past four years.

The other guys I can live with, although Dorsey has no experience in an offensive coordinator role. He was an athletic director at a college until 2019. That would seem to be a stretch and he isn't going to make Kirk Cousins into the next Josh Allen.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/5/2021 7:40:27 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 6197
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/5/2021 7:53:06 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 26294
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hahaha let’s bring out all the old hits:

We need a 3rd WR, we need some upgrades at guard, we need a TE with speed, we need a lockdown corner.

At least we seem to have the linebacker that can cover and a left tackle.


I actually think the two-three rookie corners will improve and get the lockdown part....Irv could be the TE with speed.....3rd WR is a big need as are OGs, Safety, and prob DE.

I think the biggest problem is still developing young talent. Why are we afraid of giving young players time? Jaleel Johnson, Dozier, Jones, Stephen, and Samia received too much PT when the didn't belong on the roster. That is before mentioning Elflein.

What happened to the Young DE that filled in two weeks ago and now is gone?

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6198
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/5/2021 7:54:24 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17811
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		John Elway has stepped down as the Broncos GM

So Fangio's status as HC will remain in limbo until a new GM is hired.

Pat Shurmur is currently the Broncos OC. So if Fangio goes Shurmur could become available.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 6199
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/5/2021 7:59:27 AM   
Brad H


Posts: 22611
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

John Elway has stepped down as the Broncos GM

So Fangio's status as HC will remain in limbo until a new GM is hired.

Pat Shurmur is currently the Broncos OC. So if Fangio goes Shurmur could become available.

He's getting elevated, from what I understand (heard that a couple of days ago). They should fire him, but as I understand it there is nobody to fire him. After the owner died the impending ownership has been in a legal battle.

One thing is for certain, for a guy that was such a great QB, he seems to have no idea what a good QB looks like in this era (Drew Lock, Brett Rypien, Jeff Driskel, Joe Flacco, Brandon Allen, Case Keenum, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch and Brock Osweiler).

Fangio is one of the worst clock managers in the game next to Anthony Lynn.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/5/2021 8:06:50 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 6200
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