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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 2:07:41 PM  2 votes
Daniel Lee Young


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But I am so done with Zimmer.

I thought we looked extremely good, then, we didn’t..

Not on cousins.

He moved the ball, with the run first offense.

It’s the run first, second run or draw on long or swing pass and Bubble screen, or throw a check down and pray, crap, I don’t like.

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Post #: 5276
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 2:21:06 PM   
Steve Lentz


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From: Omaha
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Cousins even ran for 35 yards on 2 carries
3 TD.
122.4 passer rating.

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" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 5277
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 2:21:22 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Cousins played very well. He has been a positive factor in both games. Put the team in position to win both games.

Agreed. The blame has shifted squarely on Zimmer. Not sure what excuses he can make about this defense.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 5278
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 2:57:40 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

I was a bit surprised to hear on the broadcast that Kirk Cousins has just 16 game-winning drives in his career. The dude is in his 10th year in the league.

Russell Wilson came into the league the same year and has 31. Heck, Andy Dalton has 27. Jay Cutler had 28 in one more season. Derek Carr has 24 in two less seasons. Ryan Tannehill has 22 in one less year.

For a guy that makes $8-million more than Tom Brady, this kind of production is unacceptable.


Should of had two more the last two weeks...would of had 2-3 more last year with a decent defense....about as cherry picked of a stat there is.


Would have, should have, could have....
Post #: 5279
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 2:59:19 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

The Rondale Moore TD was embarrassing. We didn't have a DB in the same area code.


Wonder if that is one of Phil's handful of pivotal plays?
Post #: 5280
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 3:01:05 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: GopherFan34

One of the reason"s Zim is still around is, he does just enough to keep the fans interested. Same with Spielman. He drafts enough good players to make them competitive but not enough to put them over the top. Just do it the twins way and completely tank a season so no cares.


We should have won two road games to start the season. Oline showed improvement and the defense played well except for 3 plays and three ST mistakes on the PR, missed XP, and missed FG.

Not sure that we can blame Spielman and Zimmer or even Kirk for this loss.

Basically a missed call fumble and a missed FG from 2-0.


LOL!
Post #: 5281
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 3:30:20 PM   
Ush


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Joined: 7/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Hopefully, the DL will perform better ... chupacabra-rabbit Kyler Murray had to be good preparation for chicken with his head cut off Wilson.

Griffen will help, hope he makes it back.


One aspect of the game that Griffen became very adept at was run defense on the edge. We have struggled in that area over the last season and this one.
Post #: 5282
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:38:40 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Oline was opening gaping holes for Cook to run through. The guy that got 5 sacks last week had exactly 0 this week. Cousins had time to throw most of the day. I would say they played surprisingly well.


1st half.

Then Arizona adjusted and we didn't. Par for the course.

quote:

Kicker missed a xpt and a FG to win. The Vikings need to stop taking the Minnesota Twins approach to FA pitchers when it comes to kickers. Cards got Prater who can bang a 62 yarder at the half. We got can't make a chip shot to win it... No more bottom of the barrel signings. Get a REAL kicker.


Doesn't matter. Zimmer will ruin them.

He permanently broke Walsh. Luckily for Carlson we dumped him before irrevocable damage could be done. Bailey was the most accurate kicker in NFL history until Zimmer got a hold of him.

Adjust or anticipate is not what we do.

We have an elite D and a superior rushing offense, that's why it's fine to play for field goals with a game manager QB. We run exactly what you know we're going to and dare you to stop us. We play Moneyball with the OL, knowing our QB can stand tough against pressure in his face or spin out and keep the play going.

Adjust??? To what??? This is working great!!!!


What are the characteristics of our elite D and superior rushing?

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 9/21/2021 6:08:54 PM >
Post #: 5283
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:41:48 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Charchian writes:

Out of 99 cornerbacks ranked, the Vikings' three starting cornerbacks have PFF rankings of 70th, 91st, and 99th.

Where have I seen this before?


Do a 360 and get the he!! outa here!
Post #: 5284
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:49:41 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ush

Haven’t posted in a while as life just seems to keep getting in the way. I enjoy catching up each week and reading the varying opinions so I’ll throw in mine:

1. I really dislike Cousins and think a lot of the team feels the same way. That being said, I really don’t place any blame on him for the 0-2 start. He is what he is....a very accurate passer with a strong arm who typically needs time to throw. You can tell he has worked to try and be more mobile and even had a couple of big runs the first two games. He is just limited physically. This offense hasn’t been the problem since the middle of last season IMO. They have been productive despite a bad oline and have put us in a position to win the first 2 games this year.

2. I wanted Zimmer to try and get more yards before the potential game winning kick. It might be just my “Vikings mentality” but I fully expected him to miss that kick.

3, I am very interested in how they play this week. Usually this kind of a play (missed kick) kills a team but I like what I’m hearing from Joseph and Theilen and how they are reacting to this. They seem to be rallying together. I think the team feels like they should be in a better position and are going to go and try to prove something this week. I could be totally wrong but just a gut feeling I get. If they get blown out I’ll say Zim has lost the team. I just don’t see it happening.

4. I feel like, for the first time in a long time, we have a punter who can boom one from our own endzone when we need it.

5. Welcome back Danielle. Pay the man!

6. Very disappointed in the run defense so far. I thought we’d be tougher up the gut with Pierce and Tomlinson but I see them getting pushed back a lot. Maybe it’s a matter of rarely playing with 3 LB’s but we seem to give up at least 5 yds every play on the ground.

7. Dantzler needs to just play. Breeland has shown nothing in the preseason and regular season so far. We had some bad luck with Gladney and injuries with Mike Hughes that have really set back our secondary. I don’t know that we have enough on the roster to fix this so our so-called DB guru needs to somehow work some magic with this group. The pass rush can offset some of that and I think we’ll see more pressure with the home field advantage but I fully expect our pass defense to struggle on the road especially.

8. Pleasant surprises so far: KJ Osborn, Dantzler when he played this week, passing offense continuing it’s success without Irv, creativity on offense and punting.

9. Disappointments so far: Tomlinson, Harrison (especially based on contract extension), defense overall, health issues with Barr after missing most of last season, Darrisaw injury as well and losing 2 games we easily should have won.

Good summary … I agree with most …

I have no idea if Cousins is liked by his teammates or not, don’t really care. IMO the likability / leadership discussions are way overblown … some QBs carry the ‘it’ factor, some dont. With no say in the matter, KC is the QB and at least he can be very productive.

I just read a blog that we are tied for 2nd to last in field goal % since 2014 - to tie or win in the last 2 minutes of games. About 50%! I thought we were a little iffy but that is just plain awful. How the hell can you justify not taking one shot at the endzone before kicking it?

I think we win 2 of our next 3 games and keep the season is in front us. 1-4 vs 2-3 just seems like a huge difference to me. If we go 1-4 … I will have to break bread with the people I have been blasting for giving up too soon … 1-4 and I think the rest of the season will be a mad scramble for 7 wins.


Reference your bolded point, a while back I found some obscure stat that our opponents were first in FG tries over 50 yards against us. Something like that. Like that guy from Sunday.... 62 freakin yards?!
Post #: 5285
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:52:10 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Oline was opening gaping holes for Cook to run through. The guy that got 5 sacks last week had exactly 0 this week. Cousins had time to throw most of the day. I would say they played surprisingly well.


1st half.

Then Arizona adjusted and we didn't. Par for the course.

quote:

Kicker missed a xpt and a FG to win. The Vikings need to stop taking the Minnesota Twins approach to FA pitchers when it comes to kickers. Cards got Prater who can bang a 62 yarder at the half. We got can't make a chip shot to win it... No more bottom of the barrel signings. Get a REAL kicker.


Doesn't matter. Zimmer will ruin them.

He permanently broke Walsh. Luckily for Carlson we dumped him before irrevocable damage could be done. Bailey was the most accurate kicker in NFL history until Zimmer got a hold of him.

Adjust or anticipate is not what we do.

We have an elite D and a superior rushing offense, that's why it's fine to play for field goals with a game manager QB. We run exactly what you know we're going to and dare you to stop us. We play Moneyball with the OL, knowing our QB can stand tough against pressure in his face or spin out and keep the play going.

Adjust??? To what??? This is working great!!!!


What care the characteristics of our elite D and superior rushing?

It's possible I was being facetious.
Post #: 5286
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:53:01 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

I think my new signature for the remainder of the Zimmer era is going to be ...

"If you look at it more closely, it's even worse ..."


Maybe some of these advanced stats will filter up to Zigi. Wonder if he cares.
Post #: 5287
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:55:25 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Breeland needs to take a seat. Zim needs to start Danzler and have Boyd first guy off the bench.

The fact that Breeland is veteran doesn't mean squat. He clearly sux.


Strangely, Hughes had that int in week one for KC and I think was the guy who hit the Ravens WR where the ball went flying, although another Raven player grabbed it and scored.
Post #: 5288
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 5:58:02 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

After going back to find my source, its even worse than I quoted above:

(since 2014)

"The Vikings rank 28th in field goal percentage (80.9%) under Zimmer. Including the playoffs, Zimmer-coached teams are 15 of 23 (65%) on field goals in the fourth quarter and overtime when they are tied or losing by 1-3 points. That ranks 30th. It’s even worse in the final minute of the fourth quarter or overtime when the Vikings are tied or losing by 1-3 points. In those situations, they’re 4 of 10, which is the worst mark in the NFL, according to ESPN Stats and Information."

https://www.espn.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/31368/mike-zimmer-defends-greg-joseph-as-kicking-woes-continue-to-haunt-vikings


More from the blog ...


"Because the Vikings found themselves in a position where they needed a game-winner to beat Arizona, Joseph’s miss will often be remembered as the reason why they lost this game.

But there were other factors. Facing a fourth-and-one at their own 34 with 1:54 left in the first half, the Vikings had a 63.5 chance to get a first down, according to ESPN’s Win Probability. According to those metrics, if you have a 56 percent chance or better to convert, you go for it. The Vikings punted, and Kyler Murray hit Rondale Moore for a 77-yard TD on the next play. In fact, three of the five worst coaching decisions made in Week 2 -- including the top two -- were Zimmer decisions to punt, according to EdjSports, which tracks coaching decisions using a win expectancy model.

Factors also included scoring just three points in the second half -- after a terrific first half -- and the defense yielding 474 yards.

But none of those things is as magnified as the emotion behind a game-deciding missed field goal."

......

Its all good. We're going to smash Seattle this week. Gawd I love coffee.

Here is a nutshell problem with analytics, which are very useful in context, but can be very dangerous out of context.

First, the Vikings' outcomes on field goals in previous years are completely irrelevant to the next FG they attempt, unless their blocking scheme is both the same as previously and somehow integral. Everything else is different except the uniforms.

Second, regarding the bolded, that is untrue. A hypothetical team playing in a hypothetical season had a 63.5% chance to make the first down. If that hypothetical team playing in a hypothetical game has a 56% chance of making it, they should theoretically go for it. The 2021 Vikings playing in this specific game with this specific OL had a completely different probability, and the best data was the previous play:

(2:00 - 2nd) D.Cook up the middle to MIN 34 for no gain (C.Peters, J.Hicks). MIN-D.Cook was injured during the play.

Further, the specific group of personnel that would block the next play has a specific history in short yardage situations and, spoiler alert, it's not good. In fact, particularly with regard to Bradbury and Cleveland, their ability to push forward has been abysmal. Maybe if you go behind Udoh you're better off, but he was blocking on that last play as well.

It also makes a difference in the calculus where you are on the field. Fail and you're giving up a field goal at a minimum.

I think the Vikings should go for it on fourth down more than they do, and in general they should embrace more risk, such as "passing" when it's not expected. But this kind of BS from the analytics department is idiocy, not just in sports, but in the entire rest of our lives from the grocery store to the doctor's office to Wall Street and beyond. Killing us, literally.


Re the red, I thought you said we were superior at running.
Post #: 5289
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:02:56 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

I guess I’m along for year 54 of


Skol Vikings..

Bought 2 throwbacks Fran, and Paige

Fran could run around and make plays..

88 was beast mode.

PPE FOREVER.


So they spelled your throwback "Paige"?
Post #: 5290
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:04:21 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
The weird thing is Zimmer relies on FGs but all our kickers end up being trash after a while.
Post #: 5291
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:08:08 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

Cousins even ran for 35 yards on 2 carries
3 TD.
122.4 passer rating.


Quite the stats, but stats are never in doubt.
Post #: 5292
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:10:00 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Oline was opening gaping holes for Cook to run through. The guy that got 5 sacks last week had exactly 0 this week. Cousins had time to throw most of the day. I would say they played surprisingly well.


1st half.

Then Arizona adjusted and we didn't. Par for the course.

quote:

Kicker missed a xpt and a FG to win. The Vikings need to stop taking the Minnesota Twins approach to FA pitchers when it comes to kickers. Cards got Prater who can bang a 62 yarder at the half. We got can't make a chip shot to win it... No more bottom of the barrel signings. Get a REAL kicker.


Doesn't matter. Zimmer will ruin them.

He permanently broke Walsh. Luckily for Carlson we dumped him before irrevocable damage could be done. Bailey was the most accurate kicker in NFL history until Zimmer got a hold of him.

Adjust or anticipate is not what we do.

We have an elite D and a superior rushing offense, that's why it's fine to play for field goals with a game manager QB. We run exactly what you know we're going to and dare you to stop us. We play Moneyball with the OL, knowing our QB can stand tough against pressure in his face or spin out and keep the play going.

Adjust??? To what??? This is working great!!!!


What care the characteristics of our elite D and superior rushing?

It's possible I was being facetious.


Yeah, it was based on skimming. My bad.
Post #: 5293
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:28:50 PM   
paulgly

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/13/2020
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These stats are nuts. And illustrative of the Zim game management issues. More points given up in the 4 minutes before halftime this year than in the first or second half of the game combined:

- Kickoff to two-minute warning (56 total minutes of game time): 14 points
- Two-minute warning to halftime (4 minutes): 24 points
- Second half and OT (75 minutes): 23 points

They've been absurdly bad at the end of the first half.
Post #: 5294
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:39:31 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
Wilf is pretty good at hiring coaches who crumble in high pressure/time running out situations. Childress bombed in NO late in the 4th. Zimmer is a disaster. Ironically, Wilf fired Tice but Tice/Red at least hired a clock management guy.
Post #: 5295
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:50:23 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

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Joined: 7/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wilf is pretty good at hiring coaches who crumble in high pressure/time running out situations. Childress bombed in NO late in the 4th. Zimmer is a disaster. Ironically, Wilf fired Tice but Tice/Red at least hired a clock management guy.

Red hired a clock mgmt guy to make sure nobody was charging overtime.
Post #: 5296
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 6:59:29 PM   
paulgly

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/13/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wilf is pretty good at hiring coaches who crumble in high pressure/time running out situations. Childress bombed in NO late in the 4th. Zimmer is a disaster. Ironically, Wilf fired Tice but Tice/Red at least hired a clock management guy.

Red hired a clock mgmt guy to make sure nobody was charging overtime.

So that explains our performance in 98....(too soon?)
Post #: 5297
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 7:02:28 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wilf is pretty good at hiring coaches who crumble in high pressure/time running out situations. Childress bombed in NO late in the 4th. Zimmer is a disaster. Ironically, Wilf fired Tice but Tice/Red at least hired a clock management guy.

Red hired a clock mgmt guy to make sure nobody was charging overtime.


In the words of JC, "Beap Chastard!"
Post #: 5298
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 7:03:38 PM   
Brad H


Posts: 21363
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulgly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wilf is pretty good at hiring coaches who crumble in high pressure/time running out situations. Childress bombed in NO late in the 4th. Zimmer is a disaster. Ironically, Wilf fired Tice but Tice/Red at least hired a clock management guy.

Red hired a clock mgmt guy to make sure nobody was charging overtime.

So that explains our performance in 98....(too soon?)

That's actually pretty clever. I like it.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!
Post #: 5299
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2021 7:23:09 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


Posts: 10974
Joined: 9/21/2013
Status: offline
No, my fat fingers did…
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

I guess I’m along for year 54 of


Skol Vikings..

Bought 2 throwbacks Fran, and Paige

Fran could run around and make plays..

88 was beast mode.

PPE FOREVER.


So they spelled your throwback "Paige"?


_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad
Post #: 5300
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