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RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:08:59 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

NFC title game or the door.

Speilman has had a decade, this is 100% his roster. The QB is not a project, he is a win now QB.

If not now when? I think it's ridiculous to be in control as long as he has and not have better results. Did he pitch the Wilfs on a multiple decade plan to get to a Super Bowl?

Post #: 1501

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:36:01 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45022
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

O-line: Was bad last year and got worse before the draft. Davis will move in and start at guard immediately. This will improve the IOL on two levels. 1. His strength is point of attack. 2. His predicessors are so bad, he can't help but be an upgrade. Davis isn't quite as athletic as guys like Cleveland / Elf / Bradbury, he is a whole lot stronger. He won't get to the second and third levels in the running game as easily, but he will move bodies with that initial block. He will also hold the point of attack in the pass block. I expect Cleveland to be stronger this year. He has a big frame that can add both strength and size without sacrificing athleticism. Darrisaw will have a tougher act to follow than Davis. At the same time, Reiff was not a great LT. I would he was pretty much league average. I am confident that Darrisaw can step in and at least give us that.

D-line: The return of Hunter transforms any line. Add in Pierce and Tomlinson and this is a pretty solid unit. Looking forward to seeing the year two improvements in Wonnum and Lynch. Add Jones, Robinson and Weatherly and there is a lot of potential for the D-Line rotations.

WR: I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3.

Secondary: Hopefully the better scheme fit will help Peterson regain his old level of performance. IF everybody stays healthy and off drugs and out of trouble back there, this unit could be strong if unspectacular.

I see a NFC North title and at least one playoff win as achievable.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1502

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:40:50 AM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

O-line: Was bad last year and got worse before the draft. Davis will move in and start at guard immediately. This will improve the IOL on two levels. 1. His strength is point of attack. 2. His predicessors are so bad, he can't help but be an upgrade. Davis isn't quite as athletic as guys like Cleveland / Elf / Bradbury, he is a whole lot stronger. He won't get to the second and third levels in the running game as easily, but he will move bodies with that initial block. He will also hold the point of attack in the pass block. I expect Cleveland to be stronger this year. He has a big frame that can add both strength and size without sacrificing athleticism. Darrisaw will have a tougher act to follow than Davis. At the same time, Reiff was not a great LT. I would he was pretty much league average. I am confident that Darrisaw can step in and at least give us that.

D-line: The return of Hunter transforms any line. Add in Pierce and Tomlinson and this is a pretty solid unit. Looking forward to seeing the year two improvements in Wonnum and Lynch. Add Jones, Robinson and Weatherly and there is a lot of potential for the D-Line rotations.

WR: I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3.

Secondary: Hopefully the better scheme fit will help Peterson regain his old level of performance. IF everybody stays healthy and off drugs and out of trouble back there, this unit could be strong if unspectacular.

I see a NFC North title and at least one playoff win as achievable.

It will be interesting to see how the roster shakes out. Lot's of potential but also lot's of question marks. If the Vikes only win one playoff game though, RS and Zim will be gone.

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 1503

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:42:42 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45022
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

O-line: Was bad last year and got worse before the draft. Davis will move in and start at guard immediately. This will improve the IOL on two levels. 1. His strength is point of attack. 2. His predicessors are so bad, he can't help but be an upgrade. Davis isn't quite as athletic as guys like Cleveland / Elf / Bradbury, he is a whole lot stronger. He won't get to the second and third levels in the running game as easily, but he will move bodies with that initial block. He will also hold the point of attack in the pass block. I expect Cleveland to be stronger this year. He has a big frame that can add both strength and size without sacrificing athleticism. Darrisaw will have a tougher act to follow than Davis. At the same time, Reiff was not a great LT. I would he was pretty much league average. I am confident that Darrisaw can step in and at least give us that.

D-line: The return of Hunter transforms any line. Add in Pierce and Tomlinson and this is a pretty solid unit. Looking forward to seeing the year two improvements in Wonnum and Lynch. Add Jones, Robinson and Weatherly and there is a lot of potential for the D-Line rotations.

WR: I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3.

Secondary: Hopefully the better scheme fit will help Peterson regain his old level of performance. IF everybody stays healthy and off drugs and out of trouble back there, this unit could be strong if unspectacular.

I see a NFC North title and at least one playoff win as achievable.

It will be interesting to see how the roster shakes out. Lot's of potential but also lot's of question marks. If the Vikes only win one playoff game though, RS and Zim will be gone.

You over estimate the Wilfs.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1504

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 12:00:50 PM

bstinger

Posts: 16530
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan

Post #: 1505

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 12:04:29 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27431
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Alright I think it's time for our assessments of the team and what the expectations of success should be for the 2021 season.

On offense we have a good QB, two all-world WRs with nothing backing them, adequate TEs, and one of the best RBs in the league with ample talent backing him up. We have an excellent RT, a poor center, and three promising yet unproven guys at LT, LG, and RG. Our O-line depth looks good.

On defense we seem to be loaded. Hunter is all-world and so is Kendricks and Harrison Smith. Pierce and Tomlinson are unknowns but come highly regarded. The other DE is a mystery but we have quite a few options. Barr is OK, and we have a rookie coming in. The other safety might also be a rookie. Our CBs should be excellent with Dantzler, Patrick Peterson, Mike Hughes, Mackenzie Alexander and there is depth as well. Who knows about Gladney.

Special teams could again be our downfall. We literally know nothing about any of it. I guess for that matter maybe they'll be excellent.

In my opinion the goal of the season should be to win the NFC North and make at least the NFC Championship game. To avoid firings I'd say we need a minimum of one playoff win.

Dave you need to include FA Woods at Safety....There shouldn't be a rookie starting there.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 5/6/2021 12:06:40 PM >

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 1506

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 12:08:42 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Alright I think it's time for our assessments of the team and what the expectations of success should be for the 2021 season.

On offense we have a good QB, two all-world WRs with nothing backing them, adequate TEs, and one of the best RBs in the league with ample talent backing him up. We have an excellent RT, a poor center, and three promising yet unproven guys at LT, LG, and RG. Our O-line depth looks good.

On defense we seem to be loaded. Hunter is all-world and so is Kendricks and Harrison Smith. Pierce and Tomlinson are unknowns but come highly regarded. The other DE is a mystery but we have quite a few options. Barr is OK, and we have a rookie coming in. The other safety might also be a rookie. Our CBs should be excellent with Dantzler, Patrick Peterson, Mike Hughes, Mackenzie Alexander and there is depth as well. Who knows about Gladney.

Special teams could again be our downfall. We literally know nothing about any of it. I guess for that matter maybe they'll be excellent.

In my opinion the goal of the season should be to win the NFC North and make at least the NFC Championship game. To avoid firings I'd say we need a minimum of one playoff win.

Dave you need to include FA Woods at Safety....There shouldn't be a rookie starting there.

That's right I totally forgot about that guy.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 1507

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 1:53:41 PM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

Their record can't be 10-6. 11-6 or 10-7. If they only win one playoff game, again, RS and Zim should be fired. 2 playoff wins in 7 seasons is unacceptable for a franchise that wants to win a Superbowl. If the Wilfs are happy with mediocrity, that's another story.

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 1508

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 6:38:07 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

NFC title game or the door.

Speilman has had a decade, this is 100% his roster. The QB is not a project, he is a win now QB.

If not now when? I think it's ridiculous to be in control as long as he has and not have better results. Did he pitch the Wilfs on a multiple decade plan to get to a Super Bowl?

No, but he has pics of Ziggy with sheep.

Post #: 1509

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 6:44:36 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

If you feel the frenzy now, it will hit a crescendo when we win a preseason game 23-3 against a team like Seattle with Russell playing one series and going 1-2, 12 yards.

And don't get me started on those vaunted June 1st cuts. SB bound! We are absolutely getting help, including the annual big safety from Cincy who we will cut.

Post #: 1510

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 7:08:51 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40689
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Why be positive and hopeful when you can be surly and sarcastic.

Post #: 1511

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 8:01:47 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Why be positive and hopeful when you can be surly and sarcastic.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1512

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 8:03:13 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

Their record can't be 10-6. 11-6 or 10-7. If they only win one playoff game, again, RS and Zim should be fired. 2 playoff wins in 7 seasons is unacceptable for a franchise that wants to win a Superbowl. If the Wilfs are happy with mediocrity, that's another story.

Wow. Only being one of the final 8 teams playing for the championship is a fireable transgression.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1513

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:08:22 PM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

Their record can't be 10-6. 11-6 or 10-7. If they only win one playoff game, again, RS and Zim should be fired. 2 playoff wins in 7 seasons is unacceptable for a franchise that wants to win a Superbowl. If the Wilfs are happy with mediocrity, that's another story.

Wow. Only being one of the final 8 teams playing for the championship is a fireable transgression.

Like I said, if the Wilfs (and some Vikings fans) are happy with mediocrity then so be it. The Bengals were perfectly fine with Marvin Lewis as year after year he fielded a competitive Bengals team who could get to the playoffs - but no further. I’d like the Vikings to have higher aspirations than that.

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 1514

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/6/2021 10:12:41 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

If we don't see progress, I would fire Zim but keep RS.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 1515

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 7:19:18 AM 1 votes

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Why be positive and hopeful when you can be surly and sarcastic.

Pot meet kettle.

Too much mulch yesterday?

Post #: 1516

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 8:06:50 AM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27431
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

Draft Thread highjacked moving into General.

QB: KC, Mannion/Mond Taxi:Stanley/Browning (2)
RB: Cook, Mattson, Abdullah, Kene, Ham (5)
WR: Thielen, JJ, Bisi, ISM, Beebe/Whoop/Chisena/Mitchell (5)
OL: Bradbury, Davis, O'Neil, Ezra, Darrisaw, Hill, Hinton, Cole, Udoh/Bailey/Dozier (9)
TE: Smith, Conklin, Dillon/Davison (4)
DLine: Tomlinson, Pierce, Hunter, Wonnum, Weatherly, Watts, Holmes, Jones, Twyman, Robinson/Brailford/Willekes (10)
DB: PP, Alexander, Hughes, Dantzler, Gladney?/Smith, Woods, Bynum/Metulles/Dorn (10)
LB: Kendricks, Barr, Shazz, Vigil, Smith/Lynch/Dye/Davis (5)
LS: DePaola, Bernard, Davison (1)
K: Joseph, (1)
P: Colquitt, Von Rosenberg, Davison (1)

If Davison takes over 2 spots....LS/P or LS/TE another position frees up for QB/Oline/LB

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 5/7/2021 8:08:20 AM >

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 1517

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 8:55:27 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22987
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

O-line: Was bad last year and got worse before the draft. Davis will move in and start at guard immediately. This will improve the IOL on two levels. 1. His strength is point of attack. 2. His predicessors are so bad, he can't help but be an upgrade. Davis isn't quite as athletic as guys like Cleveland / Elf / Bradbury, he is a whole lot stronger. He won't get to the second and third levels in the running game as easily, but he will move bodies with that initial block. He will also hold the point of attack in the pass block. I expect Cleveland to be stronger this year. He has a big frame that can add both strength and size without sacrificing athleticism. Darrisaw will have a tougher act to follow than Davis. At the same time, Reiff was not a great LT. I would he was pretty much league average. I am confident that Darrisaw can step in and at least give us that.

D-line: The return of Hunter transforms any line. Add in Pierce and Tomlinson and this is a pretty solid unit. Looking forward to seeing the year two improvements in Wonnum and Lynch. Add Jones, Robinson and Weatherly and there is a lot of potential for the D-Line rotations.

WR: I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3.

Secondary: Hopefully the better scheme fit will help Peterson regain his old level of performance. IF everybody stays healthy and off drugs and out of trouble back there, this unit could be strong if unspectacular.

I see a NFC North title and at least one playoff win as achievable.

If Aaron Rodgers does not play, the NFC North is very winnable. Chicago is a rising team and Detroit should be a hot mess with Goff as the QB.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1518

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 10:09:37 AM

Hats4Bats

Posts: 216
Joined: 2/27/2020
From: Austin, Minnesota
Status: offline

WR: "I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3."

Diamond in the rough?

Pro Football Network: Minnesota Vikings receive an 'A' for drafting Ihmir Smith-Marsette in 5th round
BySean Bock May 4, 3:46 PM

The Iowa Hawkeyes had four former players selected in this past weekend's NFL Draft.

One of them was former wide receiver Ihmir Smith-Marsette, who was selected by the Minnesota Vikings in the 5th round and 157th overall pick. Smith-Marsette is the first Iowa wide receiver drafted in the 5th round or earlier in the Kirk Ferentz era and the first Hawkeyes wide receiver drafted since Marvin McNutt in 2012.

Smith-Marsette joins an already strong wide receiver group in Minnesota that features Adam Thielen and Justin Jefferson.

Pro Football Network's Nick Farabaugh handed out letter grades for each of the Vikings' picks in the 2021 NFL Draft, and the selection of Smith-Marsette in the 5th round received an 'A' grade.

"A dynamic speedster who can absolutely fly, Ihmir Smith-Marsette will give the Vikings yet another dynamic option in their already solid wide receiver corps," wrote Farabaugh. "Smith-Marsette should fit in nicely as a guy who can make tough catches over the middle and stretch the field as a Z-receiver. Overall, this is great value at a position where they needed to add depth."

_____________________________

Hats for Bats - - Keep Bats warm

Post #: 1519

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 10:14:12 AM

Hats4Bats

Posts: 216
Joined: 2/27/2020
From: Austin, Minnesota
Status: offline

Smith - Marsette hilights... This was what we needed. PUMPED

Lengthy hilight reel.. but worth it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR7m07KLqA

Nate Stanley looks pretty good in these, as well!

< Message edited by Hats4Bats -- 5/7/2021 10:19:07 AM >

_____________________________

Hats for Bats - - Keep Bats warm

Post #: 1520

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 11:44:19 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

Their record can't be 10-6. 11-6 or 10-7. If they only win one playoff game, again, RS and Zim should be fired. 2 playoff wins in 7 seasons is unacceptable for a franchise that wants to win a Superbowl. If the Wilfs are happy with mediocrity, that's another story.

Wow. Only being one of the final 8 teams playing for the championship is a fireable transgression.

Like I said, if the Wilfs (and some Vikings fans) are happy with mediocrity then so be it. The Bengals were perfectly fine with Marvin Lewis as year after year he fielded a competitive Bengals team who could get to the playoffs - but no further. I’d like the Vikings to have higher aspirations than that.

My aspirations are for us to go 20-0 winning every game by 50 points or more. My aspirations are very high. However, finishing the season tied for 5th in the NFL to me isn't failure.
If that's how you define failure so be it.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 5/7/2021 11:47:35 AM >

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1521

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 11:49:35 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hats4Bats

Smith - Marsette hilights... This was what we needed. PUMPED

Lengthy hilight reel.. but worth it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR7m07KLqA

Nate Stanley looks pretty good in these, as well!

When I watched the Marsette Highlight I saw a player good at catching contested passes who seemed to have to catch far too many contested passes. In a highlight reel particularly shouldn't he be getting wide open?

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1522

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 12:13:47 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77940
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

10-6 or better and at least one playoff win and competitive in the loss is the minimum I'd expect to keep their jobs.

Their record can't be 10-6. 11-6 or 10-7. If they only win one playoff game, again, RS and Zim should be fired. 2 playoff wins in 7 seasons is unacceptable for a franchise that wants to win a Superbowl. If the Wilfs are happy with mediocrity, that's another story.

Wow. Only being one of the final 8 teams playing for the championship is a fireable transgression.

Like I said, if the Wilfs (and some Vikings fans) are happy with mediocrity then so be it. The Bengals were perfectly fine with Marvin Lewis as year after year he fielded a competitive Bengals team who could get to the playoffs - but no further. I’d like the Vikings to have higher aspirations than that.

Exactly.

44% of the teams in the NFL make the Playoffs each year.

If just being in that "elite" 44% every other year is enough for you, you probably have very low expectations.

Post #: 1523

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 12:20:03 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hats4Bats

Smith - Marsette hilights... This was what we needed. PUMPED

Lengthy hilight reel.. but worth it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR7m07KLqA

Nate Stanley looks pretty good in these, as well!

When I watched the Marsette Highlight I saw a player good at catching contested passes who seemed to have to catch far too many contested passes. In a highlight reel particularly shouldn't he be getting wide open?

If he's willing to work and learn, he's got two very good route runners to help him get wide open to learn from.

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”

Post #: 1524

RE: General Vikes Talk - 5/7/2021 12:28:31 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39282
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

O-line: Was bad last year and got worse before the draft. Davis will move in and start at guard immediately. This will improve the IOL on two levels. 1. His strength is point of attack. 2. His predicessors are so bad, he can't help but be an upgrade. Davis isn't quite as athletic as guys like Cleveland / Elf / Bradbury, he is a whole lot stronger. He won't get to the second and third levels in the running game as easily, but he will move bodies with that initial block. He will also hold the point of attack in the pass block. I expect Cleveland to be stronger this year. He has a big frame that can add both strength and size without sacrificing athleticism. Darrisaw will have a tougher act to follow than Davis. At the same time, Reiff was not a great LT. I would he was pretty much league average. I am confident that Darrisaw can step in and at least give us that.

D-line: The return of Hunter transforms any line. Add in Pierce and Tomlinson and this is a pretty solid unit. Looking forward to seeing the year two improvements in Wonnum and Lynch. Add Jones, Robinson and Weatherly and there is a lot of potential for the D-Line rotations.

WR: I don't know how much stock to give it, but PFF liked Ihmir Smith-Marsette. They said he could be one of the best deep threats in the draft. Maybe he can be that WR3.

Secondary: Hopefully the better scheme fit will help Peterson regain his old level of performance. IF everybody stays healthy and off drugs and out of trouble back there, this unit could be strong if unspectacular.

I see a NFC North title and at least one playoff win as achievable.

If Aaron Rodgers does not play, the NFC North is very winnable. Chicago is a rising team and Detroit should be a hot mess with Goff as the QB.

Detroit should be a hot mess because they are Detroit

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”

Post #: 1525

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